Champagne Socialist

They sell it in Waitrose.

??

Whitewavemark2

My favourite champagne type is Camelford Valley.

I could quaff that very happily, and I’m loyal to my birthplace.

I've just seen it in the shop here and bought a bottle Whitewavemark2. Well, I am on holiday! It had better be good!

Well I'm a good old fashioned socialist with working class roots who probably could afford the champagne if I wanted to. There's a lot of rubbish on this thread about who socialists are or were. There have always been right wing working class people. There have always been well off middle and upper class socialists. The Ragged Trousered Philanthropists describes the situation so well and such views still exist.
Most of us were raised in a socialist society. It's a society that has shifted massively to the right in the last 20 years and socialists would like to see the system move to the left and provide the support it once did.

Dinahmo

DaisyAnne Your mention of the SDP reminded me of a public meeting in Lambeth after its formation. Shirley Williams spoke and, as useful she was eloquent and concise in her speech. A brilliant woman and it's a shame that there aren't more like her now.

Shirley Williams was fantastic and should have become Prime Minister.

In the 1983 general election the Liberal SDP Alliance won 25.4% of the votes but only 23 seats, instead of the 165 seats which would have been allocated by proportional representation.

Many years later, when she was President of the Liberal Democrats, Shirley Williams came to canvass in our constituency and my OH spent an afternoon with her knocking on doors. She was then in her eighties but still had enormous energy and enthusiasm.

I went to various conferences they had Dinahmo and had a chance to listen to all four in fringe meetings. I rarely hear as knowledgable or intelligent thinking these days except, perhaps, from ex MPs and ex PMs. It seems that no candidate, MP or Minister may talk at a level above the lowest level of knowledge of those listening - and yet we expect them to know their subject. Or at least, I do.

DaisyAnne Your mention of the SDP reminded me of a public meeting in Lambeth after its formation. Shirley Williams spoke and, as useful she was eloquent and concise in her speech. A brilliant woman and it's a shame that there aren't more like her now.

GrannyGravy13

My OP was tongue in cheek

I think to précis and borrow Jo Cox’s words that ^there is more that unites us than divides us^

Which doesn't mean that people can't make serious comments about the term.

I think that the very fact that 'champagne socialist' is a derisory term displays a deep division in the general public.
It annoys me so much that one's capacity to 'care' should be measured by one's financial status, with it apparently diminishing the further one gets away from the authentic experience of being 'working class'.

Can I make it clear that the foregoing applies only to people who are left of centre.

My OP was tongue in cheek

I think to précis and borrow Jo Cox’s words that there is more that unites us than divides us

Thanks for your reply.

I suspect that most on GN who would be filled with horror to call themselves socialists, do however, think that there is a place for public ownership of things like water and transport.

We also must be aware of the urgent need to find sustainable forms of energy, and it might at this point in our economic life be sensible to “encourage” the energy suppliers by pursuing this aim rather than further carbon recovery to be poured into our creaking environment.

I’m sure also that most GNs support the public ownership of our health system and would like this to be supported energetically by the state.

We all have a bit of socialism in our hearts and minds I think.

Whitewavemark2

nightowl

I don’t like champagne very much but I believe everyone has a right to drink it if they want to. I am a socialist, and I most definitely do not support the capitalist system. The results of that system are what we have now - an ever increasing gulf between the richest and poorest. I believe in a strong welfare state and nationalisation of key industries and services - but I am definitely not a communist and actually something of a libertarian. A mass of contradictions me.

So what do you mean by socialist? Do you believe in a different form of economic system?

Sorry Whitewave I have been out. If I had to categorise myself (as I said, I’m a mass of contradictions) I would say I’m a democratic socialist. So I believe in a mixed economy, but more state ownership, more workers’ control of industries and workplaces, far less emphasis on profit, and more on investment for the good of all. I don’t want a revolution, although there have been times I thought nothing else would do (I sometimes think it now to be honest when I look at the shower of corrupt and self-serving individuals who are in government). I would like to see change brought about through democratic means but I have to concede that the British people are too conservative (small c) to ever allow anything too radical.

Re: Sun 15-May-22 20:52:14

I felt it was said very tongue in cheek Maizie and allowed the conversation to wend gently through the doubts and difficulties some have with the parties at present. I imagine we all know what "Champagne Socialist" means when used as a criticism.

I feel grateful to GG13 for the, for once, easy conversation about the difficult topic of politics. Especially, with the extremes of view at the moment.

So do I GrannyGravy13. The only party I have ever belonged to was the SDP. When they merged with the Liberals I could not see the 'Social' side of the party so didn't join that or any other.

This is from an article by the Lib Dems:

There is no general answer to the question of how much government intervention is enough, or how big the state should be. This is because of the need to deal both with market failure and with government failure, and because the appropriate level of state involvement, and the size of the state, varies so widely over time and across areas of activity. Differences of opinion over this question lie at the root of the disagreements between ‘economic liberals’ and ‘social liberals’. Economic liberals (sometimes called ‘classical liberals’) emphasise the dangers of an over-mighty state, and prefer small and non-interventionist government, while ‘social liberals’ place more stress on the need for state action, for example to redress inequality or tackle climate change, and therefore prefer more active and interventionist government, constrained primarily through decentralisation and restraints such as a written constitution. In reality, though, individual liberals’ views range over a broad spectrum rather being separated into two firm camps.

Is it better that the argument is within a party rather than between two parties who each have very extreme wings ... or not?

I worked with a Champagne socialist 20 odd years ago ,she told us who was going to win the General election as she was friendly with Pauline Prescott and she had just bought her hat.
I agree with a lot of what Maizie D says and have known quite a few in my time, on both sides the line.

I always thought that the term 'champagne socialist' was a derisive term for left voting people who aren't working class and so couldn't possibly understand what the working class actually experience and need from a government. 'Do-gooders' who inflict their middle class values and beliefs on the working class.

I seem to recall from reading The Uses of Literacy many, many years ago that there was a certain scorn among the working classes for professionals, such as Health Visitors who tried to impose middle class ideas about child rearing which conflicted with inherited 'family wisdom'. They were generally ignored in favour of traditional ideas..

I have often wondered if that is what made Michael Gove's 'we've had enough of experts' such a powerful statement for many.

I suspect 'champagne socialists' are also regarded as class traitors by some of their middleclass peers.

It's not something I'd like to be called...

I feel the same as many on GN, I understand that we need capitalism which in itself is not bad.

I just want the safety net to be more secure and recognise and acknowledge different needs.

Chocolatelovinggran we depend on Lidl for our foreign wine fix ?. We can get South African and South American wines there. Prosecco and Cava are in all supermarkets and quite popular.
It is much better than it used to be. Still can't get a decent curry round here though. ?

Dinahmo

MayBee70 I've just reread my post and realise that I've misread yours. My sincere apologies.

That’s ok. I often confuse myself!! What does get to me is how terms like champagne socialist seem to stick in peoples minds and then they spout it out to justify their beliefs. I mean, what’s wrong with someone being well off but wanting other people to be housed, well fed, and well educated? And yet it’s thrown around as a disparaging term isn’t it.

MayBee70 I've just reread my post and realise that I've misread yours. My sincere apologies.

Folks, where is the Monster Raving Loony Party when you need them,?

MayBee70

Well, my interpretation of a champagne socialist has always been someone who realises that they personally would be worse off financially under a Labour government but feel it is worth it if the majority of people have access to ether health care, schooling and housing. Having campaigned over the past few years with people from all parties ( excluding UKIP) I’ve found that most people want what’s best for the people of this country but just disagree about how the economy should be run and many believe ( imo wrongly) that Conservative economic policy is better.

Perhaps you could explain why a large proportion of the metropolitan elite in cities such as London vote Labour? They could be described as champagne socialist. If I still lived in London my house would now be worth £1.2 million and I'd still be voting Labour and so would my other friends who either live in London or the south and whose houses are worth more than mine.

Maybe70- 13.32.- me,too.
I want the best for everyone, and if that's champagne, or a decent health service, then providing it's for all, then I'm happy to pay, although I'm more of an Italian red wine drinker myself.
Mamie, I fear that you are dicing with death living in France and not drinking their wine..

Ramsey McDonald was viewed as a ^Champaign Socialist.

MayBee70

The guy who does maintenance work on my house who lives in sheltered accommodation and has a partner with ongoing health problems doesn’t vote Labour because it’s full of champagne socialists. Which probably sums up what’s strange about peoples voting habits. I’m voting to make myself financially worse off to support someone like him who votes Conservative. Make of that what you will

Same

MayBee70

The guy who does maintenance work on my house who lives in sheltered accommodation and has a partner with ongoing health problems doesn’t vote Labour because it’s full of champagne socialists. Which probably sums up what’s strange about peoples voting habits. I’m voting to make myself financially worse off to support someone like him who votes Conservative. Make of that what you will

Have you ever asked this chap whether he reads a newspaper, and if so, which one?

That could explain why ye votes against his own interests.