Scottish survey on gender recognition bill update

volver

I was going to go back through the thread, to find examples to answer Smileless2012's question, but what's the point?

There is no arguing, is there? There is no disagreeing?

Saying you feel sorry for the women of Scotland, who apparently don't know how awful things are in their country, that's not patronising, apparently.

But disagreeing with people who just don't have any time for what you're saying? That's just sneering and being snide.

I’m not aware that you have made any sort of case for anything other than that you don’t approve of people’s reasons for choosing who to vote for, that you consider there to be a ‘sisterhood’ of posters who are unconsidered and hysterical in their thinking, and that any expression of solidarity with women in Scotland is patronising. Have you disagreed with any of the points on this thread?

What do you think about gender as a concept? How do you feel about politicians who refuse to say what a woman is when asked directly? If you don’t see any of this as important for women’s rights, why not?

That's a complete misreading of what I said Doodledog .

Also, I don't answer hectoring questions. But I'll answer this one.

If you don’t see any of this as important for women’s rights, why not?
I have repeatedly said on this thread that I think the question of single sex spaces etc needs to be addressed. I will assume you have missed that. Or, perhaps I should assume that you don't think that is enough, that its not strong enough, That I don't understand the situation? I don't think it advances women's rights one iota to extend the issues that occur as a result of aggressive TRA's to be considered as a full-on assault on women's rights. I don't think calling leading female politicians "paid up members of the patriarchy" does any good at all.

But anything I say will be interpreted as anti-women, anti-feminist, and potentially telling women to shut up. In fact, it already has.

Heigh ho.

If it's only hectoring questions you don't answer, then why not answer then why not answer all 3 of Doodledog's as none of them were asked in a brusque or bullying way?

Well that's your opinion. We may not all share it.

I can’t speak for anyone else but I am not remotely interested in pre-judging yours or others’ responses. I respond to what I see. It may, I suppose, be a contradiction of what I’ve just said to say that you seem to have cast yourself as a victim on this thread, though.

I see women’s spaces as important, yes. But so is the whole notion of gender, IMO. I can’t rank order them in significance, as I see them as linked. The idea that there is a ‘gender’ that someone can become, and that simply saying it is so means that someone of one sex is of the other is something I find disturbing, particularly given the political dimension that these ideas have acquired.

Seriously, I don't see myself as a victim. Do you think I'd still be here arguing if I thought I was the victim?

I think that women's rights are hugely important. I don't see the granting of rights to trans people as automatically negating the rights of women. I think where that happens, we should be doing something about it.

I think the constant conflating of enhanced right for trans people with attacks on women's rights is what makes it difficult for some to debate this topic with any seriousness.

Equally, Volver Before you joined the discussion, a lot of the common sense that thoughtful unhectoring people have said ( not just on Gn, but in the media generally) had already been interpreted as anti-trans people and full of hatred. They feel just as you do, that they are being told to shut up. The activists who slam any suggestion that they slow down and consider the valid points that have been raised are not contributing to reconciling trans people with those with reservations. It is sliding into war - which no-one will win, and by which many people will suffer.

volver

Seriously, I don't see myself as a victim. Do you think I'd still be here arguing if I thought I was the victim?

I think that women's rights are hugely important. I don't see the granting of rights to trans people as automatically negating the rights of women. I think where that happens, we should be doing something about it.

I think the constant conflating of enhanced right for trans people with attacks on women's rights is what makes it difficult for some to debate this topic with any seriousness.

Ok, so what enhanced rights do you think that transpeople need? The only ones they seem to demand are attacking women’s rights. Apart from the right to do anything a woman can do, including entering women’s sport, they already have the same rights as everyone else, so I don’t know what they are asking for.

I don’t think I am conflating the two things (trans rights and attacks on women’s rights), but observing them.

I genuinely don’t know what concessions women could make to the trans lobby that wouldn’t erode our rights, and I don’t know why we should make concessions that do erode them.

The whole gender thing is insidious. My friend was visiting her daughter, a new mum, last weekend and heard the HV ask if she (the daughter) was happy for her baby to have her ‘gender’ recorded on her medical notes as ‘assigned female at birth’. She is 3 weeks old. I have no idea what would have happened if the mum had not been happy, but the incident shows the scope and range of the ways that the idea of gender is creeping into our lives, with no consultation or consent.

I am really not at all involved in this debate in the wider world, in real life. I take on board what you say Elegran. The whole thing seems riven with anger, and if the TRAs are behaving badly it doesn't make it any better that the other side do to. (I'm not trying to be insulting. I honestly don't know what people prefer to be called in this debate. So I'm saying the "other side")

Doodledog I don't know what other rights trans people need. But I doubt that they have all the rights right now that they believe they should have. So if our first argument is, "you can't have anything else because it affects our rights"? How can that ever be acceptable? It smacks of discrimination. I know that saying this could well be a red rag to a bull, but this is how it looks to a disinterested observer.

Er yes if something infringes on another groups rights then it's perfectly reasonable to say hold on this isnt going to work. It's a clash of rights, happens all the time, and as a society we need to thrash it out.

Yes we do. Not immediately jump to "you can't have that because it's bound to affect me."

Nobody has jumped, it's clear if men are allowed in womens spaces it will have an impact on women. I don't discriminate my views on female spaces apply across the board to all of the Male sex, so exactly the same for say Boris Johnson as it is for Caitlyn Jenner.

So much for female patients still having the right to have a female nurse.
Not when they are told a blatant lie - "I am a trans female." - by a male person.

The nurse said she was a trans female. The patient said that was fine.

What is supposed to happen? How can that be bad?

None of this makes sense.

I'm the words of the dragons, I'm out.

Before you go, volver, may I return to a point upthread? How can you doubt that transpeople have all the rights that I believe they should have when you don't know what rights I believe they should have, and don't even know what rights they want yourself?

And more to the point, how can you suggest that I (and others) are hysterically denying them these rights, or defending our own without good reason? For someone who claims that others are jumping to conclusions and reacting in knee-jerk ways, that's pretty rich, really.

Agreed about the non-discriminatory views about men in female spaces, Galaxy. I don't care if a man 'feels like' a woman or not, if he has a male body and male hormones he should not, IMO, be watching a girl undress, or sleeping next to a vulnerable woman in hospital. Allowing men the right to do those things denies the women involved the right to dignity, and potentially to safety. Why should they give up those rights? What 'need' does the man have? Isn't it more of a 'want'?

There are no women's rights if not granted on the basis of sex. As soon as a man has access to women's spaces, they are no longer women's spaces. Ditto women's sport, hospital wards, changing rooms, prison cells.

As soon as all you have to do to be a woman is say that you are one, then being a woman is meaningless. Obviously, the same applies to being a man, but the difference is that on the whole women are physically smaller and weaker. We get pregnant. We can be overpowered by men more easily than we can overpower them, and this is recognised by having separate facilities for women in states of vulnerability.

Women have historically been paid far less than men, and still are, so 'gender pay gaps' are examined, as are other sociological differences (pensions, educational attainment, access to housing and so on). If men 'become' women, all of that is meaningless too, and the notion that adherence to (or preference for) one set of 'gender' norms is what makes someone one sex or the other is likely to gain ground - it underpins the whole 'gender' debate.

It goes on and on - it's not just a case of thoughtlessly reacting to transpeople, yet every time feminists raise these issues we are treated as hysterics or transphobes. It's wearisome.

volver

The nurse said she was a trans female. The patient said that was fine.

What is supposed to happen? How can that be bad?

None of this makes sense.

I'm the words of the dragons, I'm out.

"trans female" was deliberately used to cause confusion.
That person is not a female.

Words have to mean things.

I agree FarNorth and wonder why a female patient who requested that she be attended by a female nurse was presented with someone who isn't female.

Smileless2012

I agree FarNorth and wonder why a female patient who requested that she be attended by a female nurse was presented with someone who isn't female.

Some of you will recall my friend’s interaction with a black-bearded, obviously male-bodied transwoman nurse when needing an intimate examination. Because she had been raped she had requested a female nurse, but was allocated this person. She refused examination but was deeply traumatised by being left alone in the proximity of someone who was clearly not what they said they were. She made an official complaint which was upheld but that was small fry compared to the distress she suffered.

I do remember that, SueDonim.
Clearly the assurances that are given are meaningless.

Someone wondered why this man is in a dress since nurses now wear trousers.

SueDonim was that the incident where the patient was accused of being transphobic because she expressed a preference for being examined by a female pratictioner, even though she'd explained her situation?

I’m not sure about that particular detail, Chewbacca but it was reported in the Sunday Times.

volver I'm a woman from Scotland and I feel sorry for the women in Scotland including those, like me, who do know how awful things are wrt 'gender recognition reform' and the fact that self-id of sex is already so widespread.

The comment, from someone outside Scotland, was not patronising although you may think the person mistaken.

You said volver :
What I mean Doodledog, is that we often see people on here saying that they will never vote for anyone who "doesn't know what a woman is". I think it has been said on this thread.

So are the people who say that just talking in shorthand? Is it valid to reduce such an important and detailed subject to "He doesn't know what a woman is". Because that is how it comes across.

What is more basic than knowing what sex a person is?
Those asking politicians 'What is a woman?' are completely devastated that the reality of sex is now being denied in favour of what someone 'feels like'.
Most of those people do not support the Tory party and so feel themselves to be politically homeless.

Asking politicians 'What is a man?' might concentrate their minds more.

From volver :

I think the constant conflating of enhanced right for trans people with attacks on women's rights is what makes it difficult for some to debate this topic with any seriousness.

Which enhanced rights do you believe trans people need?

Sorry, I'm just catching up on this thread. I missed seeing that you don't know what rights trans people might need.

Have a listen to Rhona Hotchkiss explaining how the rights now given to transwomen prisoners are affecting women prisoners.

youtu.be/KpfTBEXqGQM

Doodledog, well said, you! Brave, too. Put on your abuse helmet and get ready.