Scottish survey on gender recognition bill update

Yes I do remember that SueDonim, a flagrant disregard for a patients welfare .

Here's where we're heading - In Norway a woman is under criminal investigation for saying that a man (male person) cannot be a mother or a lesbian.

reduxx.info/norwegian-feminist-facing-up-to-three-year-prison-sentence-over-tweets/

"Ellingsen’s charges are centered around her questioning why FRI promoted the belief that men could be lesbians. While police are still investigating, if she is found guilty, Ellingsen could face a prison sentence of up to three years."

My local paper here in Norfolk is being very careful. A report on sanitary items being collected for’menstruating people’ in period poverty.

Clicked on to your link Far North, what insanity, this woman could get up to 3 years in prison for what? speaking the truth and yet this is Norway who sentenced far right mass murderer Breivik to a mere 21 years for taking all those young lives

Is there a fund to cover legal costs?

I suppose there's a chance that the police investigation could find that the woman did only speak the truth and that Norwegian law is an ass on this.

This doesn't really matter to the gender debate (other than insofar as the whole concept of 'gender' is, IMO, dodgy), but why do so many people now seem to want to share the details of their sexuality with all and sundry?

I'm not saying it is anything to hide; but who cares, apart from your current and possibly prospective partner(s)? Obviously if you are on 'dating' sites or otherwise looking for a partner it is important to make it clear that you are looking for someone compatible, but otherwise isn't it oversharing?

Back to the case mentioned by FN - as I understand it, the men who identify as lesbians are largely in the autogynephilia camp. They are straight men, who also 'get off' on dressing as and being mistaken for women. These are the ones who pressure lesbians into having sex with them, despite the fact that most lesbians are not interested in sex with penises. Their bubbles are burst when they are turned down, as they want to have sex with women, and they can turn violent, as they genuinely believe that transwomen are indistinguishable from women.

Reply from Alex Cole-Hamilton.

Thank you for taking the time to set out your views and concerns regarding gender recognition in Scotland.

The Scottish Liberal Democrats support reform of the existing Gender Recognition Act. The current process is harmful, illiberal and fails to respect the human rights of transgender people. Both I, and my party, believe that it is possible to safely reduce the evidential threshold for Gender Recognition Certificates. The current threshold requires a process that many find to be impractical, unfair and inaccessible. For example, it requires a long series of expensive professional reports.

It is wrong that people still have to hand control of their identity to people who they have never met and it is critical that we establish a simple and compassionate process that supports people to live their lives, free from discrimination.

You may be aware that single sex spaces are already written into law, through exceptions contained within the Equality Act 2010. It says single sex spaces are not discriminatory where they are a “proportionate means to a legitimate aim”. Where clarity around these protections would assist in providing reassurance for those with concerns, this should happen alongside reform. However, to be clear, there are no plans to reform the Equality Act or remove the option of this type of exclusion. Single sex spaces will therefore continue regardless of any reform to the Gender Recognition Act.

As this bill passes through Parliament, we need a debate that is respectful and informed, and I have confidence in the solemn scrutiny of Parliament to get this right. I hope that you will rest assured knowing that I will take your points forward in this discussion.

Once again, thank you for contacting me with your thoughts on this issue and please do not hesitate to contact me again about any issues you may have in the future.

Best wishes,

Alex

Alex Cole-Hamilton

Member of the Scottish Parliament for Edinburgh Western Constituency

The Scottish Parliament | Edinburgh | EH99 1SP and 151 St John’s Road I Edinburgh I EH12 7SD

Reply from Foysol Choudhury

Thank you very much for getting in touch with me.

As the Gender Recognition Reform Bill has only recently been published, I am beginning the process of taking advice and opinions on its legal implications and continuing to gather information to allow me to develop a more informed view over the coming weeks.

This is just the beginning of the Bill’s journey through the Scottish Parliament and there will be many avenues for scrutiny in the coming weeks in which I intend to play an active part.

With kind regards,
Foysol

Foysol Choudhury MBE MSP
Member of the Scottish Parliament for Lothian Region (Labour)

Shadow Minister for Culture, Europe and International Development

The Scottish Parliament | Edinburgh | EH99 1SP

T: 0131 348 6761

Twitter: @FoysolChoudhury | Facebook: FoysolChoudhury

Regarding the female who stated she was happy to have an intimate examination carried out by a transwoman nurse. It could be a possibility that the patient didn't fully understand what a transwoman is. Not everyone, depending on age and experiences are au fait with all these new developments. A couple of years ago a friend of mine had to complete a form at work where she was asked to classify herself with one option being "cis" woman she is a well read person but at that time such terminology was not on her radar, I think she wrote something along the lines "no idea what a cis woman is so can't say whether I'm one or not" ⁸There is an assumption that the whole of society are embued and up to date with what is constantly evolving I think that is somewhat of a myth and those people may therefore not realise the implications.

Agreed, TerriBull. The HV I mentioned earlier, who had to record the 'gender assigned at birth' of my friend's new granddaughter, said that this meant that the baby was heterosexual. I wouldn't have believed that a trained nurse wouldn't understand that sex, sexuality and 'gender' are entirely different things, but it seems that this is the case.

I think it comes from a culture of unquestioningly following rules without having to think about them because someone else has already done that in order to make the rules.
And now they are being told to follow rules which are nonsensical.

A better reply from this MSP. A pity he is a Tory.

"Thank you for contacting me about the proposed reforms to the Gender Recognition Act.

A recent consultation on this legislation showed that four in ten organisations did not support the proposed reforms, which include reducing the time it takes for people to legally change their gender from two years to three months, and allowing people aged 16 and above to apply to change their gender.

These consultation responses confirm what we already knew – this is a sensitive topic and opinions are firmly split. We must protect women’s rights and take concerns that those rights are being eroded very seriously. For now, we await the details of this legislation and stand ready to scrutinise each aspect of it.

The Scottish Conservatives will not stand by and allow this SNP-Green Government to push this legislation through Parliament without all parties’ concerns receiving due consideration. There must be a full and informed debate on this issue and that this can only truly be done once we see what legislation is being brought forward.

Thank you once again for taking the time to contact me on this issue.

Kind regards,

Jeremy

Jeremy R Balfour MSP
Member of the Scottish Parliament for the Lothian Region
Rm M3.12
The Scottish Parliament
Edinburgh
EH99 1SP
T: 0131-348-5961
[email protected] "

"The Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee will take oral evidence from three of the nine signatories to the letter – For Women Scotland, LGB Alliance Scotland and MurrayBlackburnMackenzie – at its meeting tomorrow[1st June]"

www.scottishlegal.com/articles/gender-recognition-reform-bill-risks-becoming-bad-law?fbclid=IwAR1eVK-emGJzSVjxV1OlM-jKHOHOldbXNMu63WZxef4HL2l3LVtGoFk-RxU

Here's hoping that they will pay attention to the views from three respected sources - an organisation representing women in Scotland (who will be affected by this legislation), one representing Lesbians, gays and bisexuals - (who are familiar with the problems facing those not in the sexual mainstream) - and an independent policy analysis collective,with extensive experience in policy-making, research and communications in Scotland.

On their website, MurrayBlackburnMackenzie have an article in which they say "The lack of any meaningful difference between the 2019 and 2022 EQIAs strongly suggests that the Scottish Government has not undertaken any further substantive analysis since then, nor fully explored the concerns raised in the last consultation."
murrayblackburnmackenzie.org/2022/05/20/has-the-scottish-government-undertaken-any-further-analysis-on-gender-recognition-reform-since-2019/

One paragraph in that article is very relevant to something I had predicted myself - a rise in the number of males who do NOT identify as transgender ( who would normally be seen as voyeurs or peeping toms) entering areas such as the changing rooms in women's dress shops in the belief that they will not be challenged and evicted.

As a result of these effects, we believe legislators should anticipate a further breaking down of the social conventions under which males would expect to face some challenge on entering women’s services and spaces. These conventions are already vulnerable. In 2020 the Glasgow Evening Times reported that two men who did not identify as transgender complained to the management of a large department store, after women objected to their using the changing area designated for bra fitting. They said that they would have found comments they overheard upsetting, had they been transgender. The store reportedly apologised to them.

I hope the staff also apologised to the women who had been watched as they undressed. It is a known commonplace fact that heterosexual men find the sight of women removing their clothes to be titillating.

They said that they would have found comments they overheard upsetting, had they been transgender words fail me and if I'd been in that particular changing room at that particular time, they'd have had more than my words to find upsetting.

Those men were being transphobic by suggesting that transwomen may look like them i.e. men.

Or maybe not as it's okay for people who look like men (because they are men) to say they are women and to expect to be believed.

Transmen (females) do not usually enter women's changing rooms or toilets .
If they choose to use men's facilities, that's up to them.
If men don't like that, it's up to men to make their case.

'Sarah' is taking legal action against Brighton Rape Crisis Centre Survivors’ Network because they refuse to provide a support group for natal women only, despite running groups for men and for trans people.

www.crowdjustice.com/case/help-sarahs-legal-challenge/

Well done Sarah!

She says "The law that makes it possible to offer single-sex services is expressed in terms of permission, not obligation. My central argument is that the Survivors’ Network’s “trans inclusive” policy is indirectly discriminatory: that is, it puts women at a particular disadvantage compared to men, and can’t be justified as a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim."

The equality Act 2010 says ^
"This paragraph contains exceptions to the general prohibition of sex discrimination to allow the provision of single-sex services.^

734.Single sex services are permitted where:
only people of that sex require it;
there is joint provision for both sexes but that is not sufficient on its own;
if the service were provided for men and women jointly, it would not be as effective and it is not reasonably practicable to provide separate services for each sex;
they are provided in a hospital or other place where users need special attention (or in parts of such an establishment);
*they may be used by more than one person and a woman might object to the presence of a man (or vice versa);* or
they may involve physical contact between a user and someone else and that other person may reasonably object if the user is of the opposite sex.
735.In each case, the separate provision has to be objectively justified."

All of this is expresed as "They MAY make separate provision" so people like Sarah, who was traumatised by a male, does not automatically have an all-female place to go to and share her story with women who had lived similar experiences, but has to rely on the co-operation of Brighton’s Rape Crisis Centre Survivors’ Network, which refuses to provide a support group for natal women only, despite running groups for men and for trans people.

There should be as much concern for the trauma that natal women have experienced as there is for trans women who have been assaulted, and there should NOT be a man in a circle for women to share their experiences of being raped by men

Running separate facilities for men and trans people but not for women is just rubbing it in that women's feelings are not as important as those of men, and rape is just something they have to put up with!

Glasgow 2020. Did it not occur to these men (who were not transitioned) that they were in a women's changing room? I am afraid I am VERY sceptical about them. Note also that the assistant who challenged them after women objected said "I can't stop you coming in" when she could have asked them to leave when they admitted that they were not transitioned. There is a lot of ignorance over just who has a right to be considered a woman. It isn't every man who walks into a women-only space!

www.glasgowtimes.co.uk/news/18302422.couples-shock-treatment-glasgow-m-s-store-changing-room/?ref=twtrec

My DH and his male friends, colleagues and acquaintances are absolutely furious about this daft situation. It's not just women who are angry at this erosion of real womens' rights.

So are mine. Just who is it who approves and supports this wholesale relabelling of men as women? Even those who have not applied for and been given a certificate to say that they are now legally women could walk into anywhere that currently is reserved for the female sex and no-one dares ask them to show the official documentation for fear they will be branded as "abusive" and "invading their privacy" and "trans haters"

What about the privacy of women? They will not be able to distinguish a trans woman with a certificate from a Peeping Tom without one unless they risk offending a trans woman. which seems to be ridiculously easy to do.

Here is a link to Tuesday's session in the Scottish Parliament, when evidence was heard from-
Susan Smith, Co-Director, For Women Scotland;
Lucy Hunter Blackburn, MurrayBlackburnMackenzie;
Malcolm Clark, Head of Research, LGB Alliance;
Dr Kate Coleman, Director, Keep Prisons Single Sex;
and then from—
Catherine Murphy, Executive Director, Engender;
Sandy Brindley, Chief Executive, Rape Crisis Scotland;
Naomi McAuliffe, Scotland Programme Director, Amnesty International Scotland;
Jen Ang, Director of Policy and Development, JustRight Scotland.

www.scottishparliament.tv/meeting/equalities-human-rights-and-civil-justice-committee-may-31-2022