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News & politics

Speaking the truth about brexit

(543 Posts)
varian Sat 04-Jun-22 19:39:18

Sir Anthony Gormley whose mother was German has just applied to become a German citizen and of course an EU citizen. He tells the truth about brexit. It is time more public figures told the truth about this self afflicted disaster.

www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/2022/jun/04/antony-gormley-to-become-german-citizen-due-to-tragedy-of-brexit

Petera Mon 13-Jun-22 11:56:09

Katie59

Maybe leavers would like to list the current benefits or accept they were wrong!.

Please

Why ask we amateurs here rather than just repost the top 9 opportunities being considered by the professional Brexit opportunities minister. My life's certainly going to be easier...

1. Encourage fracking, shortcut rules on planning consultation via emergency act.
2. Abolish the EU regulations that restrict vacuum cleaner power to 1400 watts.
3. Remove precautionary principle restrictions (for instance) on early use of experimental treatments for seriously ill patients and GM crops.
4. Abolish rules around the size of vans that need an operator's licence.
5. Abolish EU limits on electrical power levels of electrically assisted pedal cycles.
6. Allow certain medical professionals, such as pharmacists and paramedics, to qualify in three years.
7. Remove requirements for agency workers to have all the attributes of a permanent employee.
8. Simplify the calculation of holiday pay (eg 12.07 percent of pay) to make it easier for businesses to operate.
9. Reduce requirements for businesses to conduct fixed wire testing and portable application testing.

Dinahmo Mon 13-Jun-22 11:54:53

Nice one Volver

Kandinsky Mon 13-Jun-22 11:54:32

volver you make me laugh smile

Anyway, apologies I’m derailing the thread.

volver Mon 13-Jun-22 11:44:05

Whitewavemark2

Kandinsky

For those of us who are not your average grandparent - we are exceptional, rare, distinctive, special, unique and individual. I know which I'd rather be

You don’t have to be interested in politics & spend half your time on social media to be all those things.

I admire people who ignore all the arguing on social media & spend their time doing other things - they’re still interested in politics but have better, more productive things to do.
I’m actually envious.

A lot of incorrect assumptions there?

Catch-22

Ignore Kandinsky's post and it stands in all its incorrectness.

Answer Kandinsky's post and out ourselves as one of those she thinks is a sad-sack no-life.

Decisions, decisions...

Deedaa Mon 13-Jun-22 11:43:45

CaravanSerai There's a very thin line between democracy and mob rule. If we are going to rely on "The Will Of The People" The "People" need to thoroughly understand what they are advocating. We've always relied on being a parliamentary democracy but for that to succeed people need to trust their elected representatives, which is not happening at the moment.

Katie59 Mon 13-Jun-22 11:41:21

Maybe leavers would like to list the current benefits or accept they were wrong!.

Please

Joelsnan Mon 13-Jun-22 11:38:51

CaravanSerai
Whilst I agree with your assertion that folk should be more politically and economically aware. I do find that many who profess to be so are only in parochial terms. I find data is given showing how dreadful UK is doing very frequently without looking for alternative data especially from outside UK as comparisons.

Whitewavemark2 Mon 13-Jun-22 11:35:59

Kandinsky

*For those of us who are not your average grandparent - we are exceptional, rare, distinctive, special, unique and individual. I know which I'd rather be*

You don’t have to be interested in politics & spend half your time on social media to be all those things.

I admire people who ignore all the arguing on social media & spend their time doing other things - they’re still interested in politics but have better, more productive things to do.
I’m actually envious.

A lot of incorrect assumptions there?

Kandinsky Mon 13-Jun-22 11:33:44

For those of us who are not your average grandparent - we are exceptional, rare, distinctive, special, unique and individual. I know which I'd rather be

You don’t have to be interested in politics & spend half your time on social media to be all those things.

I admire people who ignore all the arguing on social media & spend their time doing other things - they’re still interested in politics but have better, more productive things to do.
I’m actually envious.

CaravanSerai Mon 13-Jun-22 11:29:57

Kandinsky

Yes, there does seem to be quite a few posters on the news & politics board who are anti - everything. Hours are spent on here linking endless articles & surveys, it’s not what your average grandparent would spend their leisure time doing - but takes all sorts as the saying goes.

If only If more people did take a keener interest in news and politics and bothered to read quality editorial of all political stripes in newspapers, journals and online publications they would know and understand much more about that is going on. We can only make informed decisions if we engage actively in acquiring information and think critically about it. Almost every negative effect of Brexit was predicted and yet our democratic process allowed an electorate, many of whom did not know or understand the facts, to make a critical decision which is now crippling the country and will set economic development back decades, a decision which is now affecting our children's and our grandchildren's futures.

From Humphrey Hawksley’s 2009 book ^Democracy Kills^:

For many years Western governments have insisted that the only way to achieve long-term prosperity and political stability is through a combination of free-market economics and democratic government. Yet, all evidence now indicates that this argument is both flawed and can also be the direct cause of war, disease and poverty.

From Pakistan to Zimbabwe, from the Palestinian territories to the former Yugoslavia, from Georgia to Haiti attempts to install democracy through elections have produced high levels of corruption and violence. Parliaments represent not broad constituencies but vested interests and, amid much fanfare, constitutions are written, but rarely upheld.

When I first read this book, I thought his views were only relative to other unstable countries. Now the UK has a government controlled by immensely wealthy donors with vested interests, some of that money very dirty, a manufactured class war, millions of sick people who cannot get adequate and timely healthcare and increasing levels of poverty, I think his views could equally be applied here. I am not arguing again democracy, of course not, but in the hands of a politically uninterested, politically illiterate or politically gullible electorate, democracy is an equally dangerous thing.

Joelsnan Mon 13-Jun-22 11:28:53

MaizieD
www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwjfzq7gm6r4AhUKi1wKHVbtCIkQFnoECAcQAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.spectator.co.uk%2Farticle%2Fbbc-apologises-for-antony-gormley-brexit-blunder&usg=AOvVaw0xtM11ySeHDFhS54qS8_Qg

Katie59 Mon 13-Jun-22 11:27:50

If there was any evidence at all that Brexit was benefiting the UK I would be the first to acknowledge it.

Maybe leavers would like to list the current benefits or accept they were wrong!.

silverlining48 Mon 13-Jun-22 11:24:51

I havnt read the clip but Anthony Gormley may have a wait. I was born in Germany with a German mum and came to the uk as a baby. She had lost her home and possessions.
I started the citizenship process after Brexit, over 5 years ago and cutting the too long and frustrating story short, am still waiting.
Maybe he has more clout than me ...I expect he does, but
I have no more energy.

Dinahmo Mon 13-Jun-22 11:23:38

Kandinsky

Yes, there does seem to be quite a few posters on the news & politics board who are anti - everything. Hours are spent on here linking endless articles & surveys, it’s not what your average grandparent would spend their leisure time doing - but takes all sorts as the saying goes.

For those of us who are not your average grandparent - we are exceptional, rare, distinctive, special, unique and individual. I know which I'd rather be.

RichmondPark Mon 13-Jun-22 10:45:09

Remainers are surely the guilty ones there!

The Remain voters on here do draw their views with a constant supply of new evidence and data so these are developing views, not old ones.

RichmondPark Mon 13-Jun-22 10:43:12

I prefer for UK to make its own mistakes.

Plenty to enjoy now then.

Kandinsky Mon 13-Jun-22 10:42:59

Dickens

Oh absolutely.

RichmondPark
Unless of course the only reason for joining in with these threads is to keep driving home the same, ageing, entrenched views.
Remainers are surely the guilty ones there! grin

HousePlantQueen Mon 13-Jun-22 10:40:05

Punkwomble, now that you have got what you voted for and the Eastern Europeans who you believe were undercutting the local Labour Market are no longer doing so, has anything got better for you? Not being goady, just wonder if your reasons have given you what you wanted or were promised?

RichmondPark Mon 13-Jun-22 10:25:21

I like all the links and quotes, it's a great resource of information that might not possibly come my way. I see it as a good way to learn and broaden my mind.

As we are on the news and politics thread I imagined that most people on here would be hungry for news and data on current events, history and different political opinions. Unless of course the only reason for joining in with these threads is to keep driving home the same, ageing, entrenched views.

As for the phrase 'those of us who live in the real world' is a funny one isn't it? We are all in the real world with all the pressures, worries and hopes that brings. It's a lazy way of dismissing any view that does not match yours.

Janet12 Mon 13-Jun-22 10:19:12

I voted for Brexit because The European Union is a failing political construct which started off as a trading unit. Germany and France are completely dominating Europe and the poorer countries in Europe can do nothing about it. I prefer for UK to make its own mistakes and not have them imposed. Illustrations of how an independent UK can make decisions more quickly than the EU is in its response to vaccine production and to the war in Ukraine. Of course, there are bound to be ramifications for leaving the EU. However, this non-racist, educated person would still vote to leave.

Dickens Mon 13-Jun-22 09:52:49

Kandinsky

Yes, there does seem to be quite a few posters on the news & politics board who are anti - everything. Hours are spent on here linking endless articles & surveys, it’s not what your average grandparent would spend their leisure time doing - but takes all sorts as the saying goes.

Some posters are quite 'political' - others, not so much.

I don't believe being a grandparent has much to do with it.

And there's no rules about being a 'grandparent' - apart from being kind and loving to your grandchildren!

I doubt anyone is 'anti' everything...

Yes, it does take "all sorts...". Before the age of the internet, we nattered to each other - or wrote disgruntled letters to The Times ("Disgusted of Tunbridge Wells"). Now we have social media and we make use of it to air our views. To be expected I would have thought.

MaizieD Mon 13-Jun-22 09:51:44

^ The establishment got the good kicking it deserved from those of us who live in the real world.^

I have to admit that among the shock, disappointment and heartbreak over the referendum result the one, brief, bright moment was the exit of Cameron. But that was because I thought it would be the end of austerity. I was very much mistaken, of course; austerity wasn't just Cameron and Osbourne, it's the tories. It's bred into them and never leaves them... Keep the poor and disadvantaged poor and disadvantaged. And make sure that any money in the economy trickles upwards to the wealthy...

I hope you didn't vote tory in 2010 and 2015. PunkWomble... grin

Petera Mon 13-Jun-22 09:36:05

PunkWomble The establishment got the good kicking it deserved from those of us who live in the real world.

I can see how that has all been really tough for you, and for many others, but has anything actually improved since 2016? It was the establishment who ran the leave campaign, and who are still in charge now.

If anyone wants to listen to the Grimsby fisherman who now know they were lied to I'd recommend:

www.arte.tv/fr/videos/104796-002-A/arte-regards-brexit-la-frustration-des-pecheurs-britanniques/

But it'll make you weep.

DaisyAnne Mon 13-Jun-22 09:34:01

There are, so I read, an annual average of 21 MPs in the ERG group.

I wonder how much difference they make if all other MPs have decided they are very wrong in their views on leaving the EU, and that the power base they have created for themselves is not Conservative.

The next question would be - 'How many MPs feel the ERG views are not Conservative and are willing to do something about it'. More than at one time, I would say. However, is it enough?

I now believe the Conservative party will have to destroy itself completely, in order for a smaller party to be reborn and that this depends on PR. So I am not looking forward to the appauling far-right decisions stoping any time in the near future. But this could change.

volver Mon 13-Jun-22 09:31:04

And there are some posters who will cling to what they believe in the face of all evidence to the contrary and like to poke fun at others.

Takes all sorts I suppose.