Shamima Begum

Totaly agree with you DiamondLily.

Our security forces are stretched so adding more potentially dangerous people to the list is hardly helpful. Likewise the prisons are full and someone like SB would need to be looked after as she could be a target.

I have sympathy for the 15 year old who left but serious doubts about who she has become.
I believe there should be no death penalty in any country. It is barbaric.

Does something magical happen when innocent 15 year olds step off UK soil?

15 year on UK soil is innocent

15 year old raped, abused, brainwashed, impregnated and traumatised elsewhere shortly afterwards is bad?

VioletSky

Does something magical happen when innocent 15 year olds step off UK soil?

15 year on UK soil is innocent

15 year old raped, abused, brainwashed, impregnated and traumatised elsewhere shortly afterwards is bad?

It is sad but true that abused and traumatised children can go on to commit evil deeds as an adult.
It could take a very long time if ever to undo all that has happened to SB and in our present state we don't have the resources to do that and keep others safe from what she may have become.

She shows all the signs of a psychopath:

behaviour conflicting with social norms
disregard for the rights of others
unable to distinguish between right and wrong
not showing remorse or empathy
lies often
manipulating and hurting others

She showed no grief at the death of her children and refuses to take blame for or admit to anything she has done

AGAA4

Our security forces are stretched so adding more potentially dangerous people to the list is hardly helpful. Likewise the prisons are full and someone like SB would need to be looked after as she could be a target.

I have sympathy for the 15 year old who left but serious doubts about who she has become.
I believe there should be no death penalty in any country. It is barbaric.

So you'd rather have her being stateless and living in a country where she would might be seen as some kind of heroine? Goodness knows what kind of supporters she could gather round her and what they'd do, if she put her mind to it (or was used by somebody else).

She was British-born and is the UK's responsibility. Gone are the days of shipping off our criminals to Australia.

Beckett

She shows all the signs of a psychopath:

behaviour conflicting with social norms
disregard for the rights of others
unable to distinguish between right and wrong
not showing remorse or empathy
lies often
manipulating and hurting others

She showed no grief at the death of her children and refuses to take blame for or admit to anything she has done

How long ago was that?

AGAA4

VioletSky

Does something magical happen when innocent 15 year olds step off UK soil?

15 year on UK soil is innocent

15 year old raped, abused, brainwashed, impregnated and traumatised elsewhere shortly afterwards is bad?

It is sad but true that abused and traumatised children can go on to commit evil deeds as an adult.
It could take a very long time if ever to undo all that has happened to SB and in our present state we don't have the resources to do that and keep others safe from what she may have become.

We have to have the resources. She's the UK's responsibility - nobody else's.

growstuff

Beckett

She shows all the signs of a psychopath:

behaviour conflicting with social norms
disregard for the rights of others
unable to distinguish between right and wrong
not showing remorse or empathy
lies often
manipulating and hurting others

She showed no grief at the death of her children and refuses to take blame for or admit to anything she has done

How long ago was that?

She is still exhibiting all those traits - has she ever apologised for the comments about the Manchester bombing? Has she ever shown any concern for the Yazidi girls who were forced into slavery (something she said she agreed with).

A very simple example of how even victims normslise abuse...

To stop children being physically punished in the UK, with eveey scrap of evidence proving it was wrong, we had to make it illegal.

Yet still people say, "I was beaten as a child and I turned out ok"

No you didn't, you think it is ok to beat children.

She was no innocent in all this. Didn’t come from an abusive home, researched what she did. I worked with teenagers that age, they were appalled at what Isis were doing as were all right minded people were. They wouldn’t have dreamt if doing what she did or mixing with such low life. She got her views from somewhere. What’s more she planned it and followed it through, up to then she called the shots, it didn’t end as she wanted it to but went along with it long enough. I was working at fifteen and no one’s fool, might make some wrong calls but minor ones. ,

Do some of you know nothing about how mental trauma, like that SB experienced can affect someone's mental health and the way they think.

Consider what would happen to her, if being where she is now, she suddenly said she accepted everything she did was wrong that ISIS was wrong etc. etc. Do you think she would actually survive another day. I am sure she would be dead within 24 hours.

It is so nice for most of us with our easy peasy lives, born in Britain, lived our lives here, navigated our teenage years, the occasional child born to a teenager, and/or early bad marriage and now sitting so comfortable and pontificating on the fate of a child born to into an ethnic community and religion in a counrty where both are regulalry attacked, where she has probably been abused to her face from childhood, Suddenly online are the seductive delights of a society where everybody is the same as you, where anyone from what was previously the community that bullied and terrorised are themselves bullied and terrorised. How wonderful it seems.

Then you are there, it is nothing liked it was promised but there is no way out and if you show even a flicker of descent, it is a bullet in your head, if you are lucky, possible far worse. You have child after child, all die. You learn that the only way of survival is to embrace this dreadful society your are in.

Are all the people condemning her prepared to say that in her place they would have stood up spoken against the regime - well you wouldn't survive to tell the tale. Have you not heard of the Stockholm Syndrome, where during a long hostage siege hostages and hostage takers ended up in a relationship of co-dependence.

In her situation, given you had made the bad decision at 15, how would you negotiate the narrow line between a bullet in the head and recanting all you previous views and refuse to support everything the society round you supported.

I can tell you what I would be doing, whatever my private thoughts were, I would be singing as loudly as possible to the song sheet of the society I was living in to ensure I stayed alive and hoping, that sooner or later I could get out and get away from it all. In fact, I would be doing exactly what SB is doing now.

M0nica ??

Monica you are suggesting that SB is regretting her choices and is no longer radicalised but just pretending she is to keep safe. How can you possibly know what goes on in her head?
It may be as you think but it may not be.

Sometimes people who have no awareness of mental trauma make me nervous because they have no understanding of causing it themselves and take no responsibility even when it is pointed out to them.

That is a true lack of empathy

VioletSky

Sometimes people who have no awareness of mental trauma make me nervous because they have no understanding of causing it themselves and take no responsibility even when it is pointed out to them.

That is a true lack of empathy

The lack of empathy comes from those who have never had family involved in a terrorist bombing.

Beckett

growstuff

Beckett

She shows all the signs of a psychopath:

behaviour conflicting with social norms
disregard for the rights of others
unable to distinguish between right and wrong
not showing remorse or empathy
lies often
manipulating and hurting others

She showed no grief at the death of her children and refuses to take blame for or admit to anything she has done

How long ago was that?

She is still exhibiting all those traits - has she ever apologised for the comments about the Manchester bombing? Has she ever shown any concern for the Yazidi girls who were forced into slavery (something she said she agreed with).

Has she been interviewed recently and asked whether she wishes to apologise? Sorry, I haven't really followed the story.

Below the belt, AGAA4.

AGAA4

VioletSky

Sometimes people who have no awareness of mental trauma make me nervous because they have no understanding of causing it themselves and take no responsibility even when it is pointed out to them.

That is a true lack of empathy

The lack of empathy comes from those who have never had family involved in a terrorist bombing.

Errmmm ... that's about 99.99% of us!

Very well said MOnica.

Allsorts

She was no innocent in all this. Didn’t come from an abusive home, researched what she did. I worked with teenagers that age, they were appalled at what Isis were doing as were all right minded people were. They wouldn’t have dreamt if doing what she did or mixing with such low life. She got her views from somewhere. What’s more she planned it and followed it through, up to then she called the shots, it didn’t end as she wanted it to but went along with it long enough. I was working at fifteen and no one’s fool, might make some wrong calls but minor ones. ,

People don't have to come from an abusive family to fall madly in love or be taken in by extremist views.

I am on the side of those who are the victims of radicalised people. There have been too many.

She was recently interviewed which is when she said she was afraid of being put on trial. She has had numerous chances to apologise, to admit to doing wrong but all she talks about is how horrible things have been and are for her - she has no empathy for the suffering she supported and inflicted

AGAA4

Do you really think that?

Do you also think people have no empathy for those who express fear and concern towards certain groups after such a traumatic event?

Or perhaps it could be that we can understand peoples trauma and can work towards funding a way to heal/educate all of them.

And even if we cannot, we can look to prevention and taking responsibility when things go wrong.

And let us be clear here, trauma is not what causes an entire group to be bullied and harassed online, in schools, workplaces and on the streets. Misplaced anger and fear is. Which is in itself, a form of brainwashing many have fallen for, if they are not simply a bully in need of an excuse.

Good luck with trying to cure the hatred of some of these groups. They want to kill and maim and I have no sympathy or empathy for those who believe this is right