Shamima Begum

I think the point is that she was a child, and legally, children are treated differently from adults. She is British, so it is our responsibility to deal with her under British law. Those things apply whether or not she was groomed and whether or not she represents a danger now.

All the rest can be decided by the courts and psychologists.

VioletSky The race of these children has nothing to do with it. You are turning this into a racial issue. The boys were failed from birth as their parents were the guilty ones (I have always felt their parents should have stood trial). They are therefore more innocent. They committed one crime. Begum decided to take up a murderous spree at a much older age, when her brain was able to understand that taking multiple lives would be part of her new life. I did not say I have no sympathy for her, but I have less sympathy.

I was about to post the same Chestnut. There have been several posts on this thread pertaining to the fact that she's Muslim, and it may/would be different if she were blonde and blue eyed, but her race is irrelevant and it muddies the waters IMO if this is made about race.

TBH I don't know what the answer is but the thought of her returning here and at some point being free makes me feel very uncomfortable.

Maudi, many "bleeding hearts" are just people with empathy for the victim and the perpetrators of crime. I am sad that the phrase is a sneer.
And why are lawyers "fat cats"? I have lawyers in my family and they are no fatter than relatives who are engineers, medics and professors.
As Iam64 said, if you were accused of a crime, I would hope that you would retain counsel immediately. A person who represents him/herself in court has a fool for a client.

Muslim girl, said she felt unloved at home

Ms Begum has never claimed that she felt "unloved at home". She has said that she was very close to her mother, although her father, who mainly lives in Bangladesh, was only present in the family home sporadically and for only a month or so at a time. She was also very close to her older sister, Renu, who has confirmed that it was a loving and supportive home and it's been her sister who has campaigned, along with their solicitor, for repatriation to the UK; Renu Begum said the family made "every fathomable effort" to stop Shamima from getting into Islamic State territory in 2015. So; unloved and unsupported by her family she was not!

SB has recently said that it wasn't her hatred for the UK that impelled her to travel to Syria; it was the life that she was leading at that time that she hated; she wanted to live a more Islamic way of life and she was lured there by the promise of leading a devoutly religious and secular life with in a Muslim country. She was young enough and naieve to believe in Nirvana.

Girls are groomed into different dangerous situations at the same age Chestnut. Do they deserve less sympathy?

Women stay in lifelong abusive relationships, as, we are coming to understand do some men. Theu hsbe developed brains... So less sympathy?

I didn't understand my mother was abusive until half a lifetime.

You also have no idea what she was told. She has also said she left because she was deeply unhappy.

You have no idea what her childhood was like and she is unlikely to speak badly of it when her family are her only connection left to her old life.

Its just conjecture and we will never know because she was made stateless and wont face trial here as she should

When she got there, it couldn't have been further from the truth could it Chewbacca. I do find it interesting that it's not Ms. Begum casting aspersions on her childhood, the opposite from what she and her sister have said.

I remain conflicted.

Chewbacca, thanks for your post at 18.00 today. SB was young and like many 15 year olds, naive and single minded. I can’t imagine ever being seduced by the Isis lifestyle/belief system. It’s so far from my upbringing, the influences I was under at 15 were inclined to growing my hair, believing world peace was possible and having All you Need is Love as a backdrop. Drove my dad mad as would be expected.
The path SB chose was against ‘western values’ and towards an Islamic state. Impossible to understand except, the west had i. Her belief system, murdered Muslim children, abused its power, I’m not defending her, just trying to understand.
We need to understand if we are to influence others not to do as she did. As with the boys who murdered James Bulger

I do find it interesting that it's not Ms. Begum casting aspersions on her childhood indeed Smileles; her family are going through enough anguish and torment without unsubstantiated accusations that they didn't love her enough and that that was a factor in her running away to Syria. A factor that should be considered however is that, of the 2 friends that she ran away with (Kadiza Sultana & Amira Abase); Ms Abase was taken to at least 3 demonstrations, rallies and speeches by her father, from the age of 13, which were organised by banned terror group Al-Muhajiroun and attended by Anjem Choudary and Michael Adebowale, one of the killers of Fusilier Lee Rigby. Abase Hussen himself admitted that this may well have been influential in the girls decision making and something that I'm sure he deeply regrets now. There is nothing to suggest that Ms Begum's family ever had any connections, or interests, in such groups and were blameless.

The path SB chose was against ‘western values’ and towards an Islamic state. Impossible to understand except, the west had i. Her belief system, murdered Muslim children, abused its power

Yet still Muslims flock to the west and she still wants to return to the wicked west.

It must be hard work constantly coming up with excuses for those that hate us and our culture.

Even more helpful post at 18.55 Chewbacca. I’d forgotten the influence of Amira Abase.
It’s different, but reminiscent of the racist killers of Stephen Lawrence. Heavily influenced by right wing extremists

sorry posted too soon......There is nothing to suggest that Ms Begum's family ever had any connections, or interests, in such groups and were blameless in their daughter's decision to leave. They flew out to Turkey, as soon as they knew where she'd gone but missed her by minutes as she'd gone through to Syrian territory. Hardly the actions of an unloving, unsupportive and disinterested family.

This isn't where I read it but just what came up with a quick Google, i am obviously not putting the right search words in to find the right article.

I have simply stated she said she felt unloved (which she did) and we cannot know what her childhood was like.

www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/shamima-begum-says-joined-isis-23752922

I do think that bullying and hate crimes against minorities in the UK do not create a safe environment and working towards ending that could definintely help prevent radicalisation.

It is interesting that those saying she was a child who had been groomed don't address the fact that most in that situation would have been horrified at what they saw and whilst they may not have been able to escape the situation would not be "unfazed" at the sight of a severed head, would not have become a member of the female "morality police", would not have sewn suicide bombers into vests and even when away from those horrors would not have said the Manchester bombing was "justified".

She is damned by her own words

It’s different, but reminiscent of the racist killers of Stephen Lawrence. Heavily influenced by right wing extremists.

Just so Iam64; When Shamima's and Kadiza's families became aware of Abase Hussen's connections with Al-Muhajiroun, and saw the photographs of him burning British flags (with his 13 year old daughter by his side) they shunned him and distanced themselves from him as far as possible. They were not/are not radical UK haters; they just had the misfortune that their daughter was friends with someone who's father had extremist beliefs. And who amongst us can say that we know where are children are/what they talk about/who they socialise with 24/7/365? Not knowing is not an indication that we love and cherish them any the less; it means that, at 15 years old they're beginning to inhabit their own independent worlds that we might not know very much about. This is normal behaviour and doesn't usually lead to our children running away seeking an idealist way of life in a war zone. It isn't an indication that they're unloved or uncared for.

There have been several posts on this thread pertaining to the fact that she's Muslim, and it may/would be different if she were blonde and blue eyed, but her race is irrelevant and it muddies the waters IMO if this is made about race.

Yes, Sally Jones was blonde and blue-eyed.
Jack Letts is white and has also lost his UK citizenship.
Other ISIS recruits from around the world are stateless in camps, their children growing up there.

It's a problem we cannot continue to ignore.

her family are going through enough anguish and torment without unsubstantiated accusations that they didn't love her enough and that that was a factor in her running away to Syria.

Yes and thank you for reminding us about the role of
Ms. Abases' father played in taking his 13 year old impressionable D to those rallies who was Ms. Begum's friend.

And this who amongst us can say that we know where our children are/what they talk about/who they socialise with 25/7/365? and the internet makes this even more problematic.

A teenager feeling unloved does not mean that they weren't and that their childhood was anything less than it should have been.

I remember Jack Letts but had forgotten about Sally Jones Callistemon.

And this who amongst us can say that we know where our children are/what they talk about/who they socialise with 25/7/365? and the internet makes this even more problematic

???

When a child says they felt unloved, people should listen.

It really doesn't matter if people agree they should feel that way, what matters is that they do/did.

Not listening to someone, especially a child, saying that to you would be a very quick way to reenforce those feelings because it sends the clear message, your feelings don't matter and I dont respect you enough to put your feelings above my ego

VioletSky
I’m afraid your transferring all the negative emotional feelings you had as a child/adult onto SB.

jack letts and sally jones both older not children

I`m not sure that is a very nice thing to say?

I simply quoted her

I suppose my childhood probably does make me more aware and likely to remember reading that quote but I do not see that as a reason to invalidate my opinion in discussion... Which you did with a great deal of confidence for a stranger

MerylStreep

VioletSky
I’m afraid your transferring all the negative emotional feelings you had as a child/adult onto SB.

Sorry my last comment is missing this quote

Again MerylStreep.

I've searched extensively for any comment that MsBegum has made regarding the love, or lack of it, that she received as a child vs and can find nothing to substantiate your insistence that she's ever said that she felt unloved or if that had any relevance to her disastrous decision to leave the UK. If you can find anything, I'd be interested to see it and look forward to seeing you provide the relevant link. Without that, it seems somewhat cruel and heartless to add to what must be a hearbreaking situation for them by insinuating that they were somehow remiss.

VioletSky

When a child says they felt unloved, people should listen.

It really doesn't matter if people agree they should feel that way, what matters is that they do/did.

Not listening to someone, especially a child, saying that to you would be a very quick way to reenforce those feelings because it sends the clear message, your feelings don't matter and I dont respect you enough to put your feelings above my ego

The Cleveland Report by Judge Elizabeth Butler Sloss addresses the issue. It stresses the need to listen carefully to what children have to say and take it seriously.
Butler Sloss approached the issue of listening to children protecting them, in a calm, reasoned, balanced manner. This was August 2011. The guidance remains useful