Can we discuss the migrant crisis in a sensible and humane way?

paddyann54

Maybe ban the use of "illegal" immigrant and just call them people.No one is "illegal" .Using that term is ramping up the bias.People have always left their country of origin and looked for a better life ,in war and in peace .
Many of those arriving will be valuable citizens and contribute to communities around the 4 nations IF we find the way to incorporate them into society instead of making them live in detention centres barred from working for a living .
I was appalled at the opinions on teh Jeremy Vine show yesterday by people who you would think had a brain,,,but it seems the NIMBY is alive and well in 2022 .
Put yourself in their shoes before judging these desperate folk

Yes! I couldn't agree more! These people aren't illegal.

Paddyanne
Some are desperate many are economic migrants who deliberately destroy documents and are stateless, that is illegal.

If their origin could be proved they would be sent back, if I tried to enter the US illegally I would be sent home on the next plane

For some reason, the graph didn't show.

growstuff and paddyann - hear hear.

No person is illegal.

Why do they all want to come to the UK? We have people risking lives on small unsuitable boats crossing the Atlantic. There were Vietnamese who are not in a war situation paying money and sadly ultimately their lives travelling in the freezer compartment of a lorry. Migrants are leaving EU countries such as France where they are safe to get here by unsafe means. Why don’t the French make them welcome and settle them there? Why do they prefer here to France? Just a few thoughts with no real political intent.

Sorry channel not Atlantic

And it's still not showing. Grrr!

This is a direct link

www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-javids-misleading-claim-about-uks-refugee-policy

25Avalon

Why do they all want to come to the UK? We have people risking lives on small unsuitable boats crossing the Atlantic. There were Vietnamese who are not in a war situation paying money and sadly ultimately their lives travelling in the freezer compartment of a lorry. Migrants are leaving EU countries such as France where they are safe to get here by unsafe means. Why don’t the French make them welcome and settle them there? Why do they prefer here to France? Just a few thoughts with no real political intent.

They do not all want to come to the UK!!!!!!!!!! That's why I posted the graph (or tried to). Look at the graph in the link.

www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-javids-misleading-claim-about-uks-refugee-policy

Sorry HousePlantQueen. It seems the answer to your opening post is No, we can't.

Growstuff posts figures showing how few people come here.

Next post - why do they all want to come here?

How do we get past this? How do we change people's mindsets about this?

We have people risking lives on small unsuitable boats crossing the Atlantic.

Really?

This is another reliable link for anybody who wants to find out facts rather than believe the headlines churned out by the media and, sadly, some politicians:

researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/SN01403/SN01403.pdf

Interesting discussion. It’s the ‘I’m alright Jack, pull up the ladder’ mentality for those of us in the world who are alright.

growstuff

And it's still not showing. Grrr!

This is a direct link

www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-javids-misleading-claim-about-uks-refugee-policy

These figures only show applications that have been granted. There are plenty trying to get to UK without going through the application process - note I avoid the word illegal. There were 600 yesterday and 444 the day before risking it to get here. So why are they taking such risks to get here in particular? What is it that makes them think UK is such a great place to risk everything for? Vietnamese desperate to get here? Is there an element for some of the grass being greener?

The 600/444 don't just disappear into the ether. They enter the system.

If we had proper channels for dealing with people who want to get there, the number of people arriving by covert methods would decrease and they would be easier to track down.

Win/win.

Another reliable statistic:

Where do asylum-seekers in the UK come from?

Amongst adults, Iran was the top nationality claiming asylum in the UK in 2021, as it has been every year since 2016, with 9,800 applications.

In the year ending September 2021, the top five countries of nationality for asylum applications (from main applicants) were:  Iran  (6,002), Eritrea  (4,412) Albania  (4.010),  Iraq (3,042) and Syria (2,303).

(Source:  Immigration statistics, year ending September 2021)

www.unhcr.org/uk/asylum-in-the-uk.html#:~:text=The%20top%20nationalities%20of%20people,%2C%20and%20Turkish%20(13%2C845).

Of the above, Eritrea is the only country in Africa. The human rights record in Eritrea is dire (especially for males). Eritreans would prefer to come to the UK because they already have family in the UK and they learn English at school.

volver

The 600/444 don't just disappear into the ether. They enter the system.

If we had proper channels for dealing with people who want to get there, the number of people arriving by covert methods would decrease and they would be easier to track down.

Win/win.

They take enormous risks though. The Vietnamese were not fleeing persecution. And actually some migrants do vanish into the ether and then end up working in sweat shops with little pay under the control of unethical people and unable to escape because they are not here legally.

25Avalon

growstuff

And it's still not showing. Grrr!

This is a direct link

www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-javids-misleading-claim-about-uks-refugee-policy

These figures only show applications that have been granted. There are plenty trying to get to UK without going through the application process - note I avoid the word illegal. There were 600 yesterday and 444 the day before risking it to get here. So why are they taking such risks to get here in particular? What is it that makes them think UK is such a great place to risk everything for? Vietnamese desperate to get here? Is there an element for some of the grass being greener?

1 More of them actually think that other places are better. Other countries also have people who are living under the radar and have had asylum claims rejected.

2 Those who want to come to the UK do so because they have family in the UK and are more likely to speak English than other languages.

One of the men who was due to fly to Rwanda was Iranian. His only living family (from memory two uncles and two brothers and their families) lived in the UK and had citizenship. He had been persecuted in Iran, so of course he would want to join family.

25Avalon

volver

The 600/444 don't just disappear into the ether. They enter the system.

If we had proper channels for dealing with people who want to get there, the number of people arriving by covert methods would decrease and they would be easier to track down.

Win/win.

They take enormous risks though. The Vietnamese were not fleeing persecution. And actually some migrants do vanish into the ether and then end up working in sweat shops with little pay under the control of unethical people and unable to escape because they are not here legally.

I agree that most Vietnamese aren't fleeing persecution and I would expect asylum applications to be refused. However, just giving one country as an example doesn't negate the validity of those from the other countries.

Quite so Growstuff but it shows the need to do something about the traffickers and controllers who deal in human misery.

Human rights in Vietnam

Elections in Vietnam has been characterized as nothing more than a rubber stamp, with every election resulting in 99% of the votes being apparently cast for the CPV. The freedom of association, freedom of speech, freedom of the press, and the right to a healthy environment are severely restricted in the country.[7] Any citizen critical of the regime as well the discussion of certain topics deemed "unacceptable" by the CPV are often subject to intimidation and imprisonment.[8]

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Vietnam

You know nothing, John Snow.

25Avalon

Quite so Growstuff but it shows the need to do something about the traffickers and controllers who deal in human misery.

It shows the need to make it easier for people to come to the UK via safe routes.

I have been to Vietnam a number of times and the people there are not oppressed in the same way as in many of the other countries in the world. Even neighbouring Cambodia, much worse. You can’t open your mouth and say certain things in many, many countries including China( especially Hong Kong), Myanmar, and increasingly some so called ‘free’ countries. Vietnam is by no means worse than anywhere else and should not be bracketed with the really genuinely oppressive countries

Just because some other countries are worse doesn't mean that Vietnam doesn't have a poor human rights record:

www.hrw.org/asia/vietnam#:~:text=Vietnam%27s%20human%20rights%20record%20remains,%2C%20and%20religion%2C%20are%20restricted.

It’s not just human rights it’s poverty in a great many countries faced with the prospects of a life of abject poverty many head for a new life overseas, legally or otherwise, encouraged by traffickers.

A fact which may explain the number of migrants from Eritrea and why documentation is 'destroyed'; in this war torn country, military service is compulsory, and some are forced to stay in the shambolic 'army' until they are 40 years old. This has serious implications for being able to work, raise a family, do the things that everyone else does in their early 20s and 30s, thus many destroy their papers and set off for Europe. It is often useful to know the reasons behind the migration. As for Iran and Iraq migrants; the situation in both countries is well known, Iran is a pariah state, and Iraq is now a mess due to 'regime change', surely if a country merits intervention by sovereign armed forces, we should be granting asylum to its citizens?