Can we discuss the migrant crisis in a sensible and humane way?

There have been many thoughtful and well considered posts on this thread which was what I hoped when I started it. There are many sensible suggestions, and acknowledgement that the dinghies landing on UK beaches are a symptom of a worldwide problem. But, the one thing we all seem to agree on is that asylum seekers need to be dealt with swiftly and efficiently, years in detention centres are wasteful financially and in humanitarian terms.

volver

^We have people risking lives on small unsuitable boats crossing the Atlantic.^

Really?

Sorry 25Avalon, I missed your correction.

I'm being provocative but do we just say 'Fine. Let them all come here'? The world has always been in turmoil somewhere. We've had wars and a revolution here in UK but seem to have worked through that. Will these other countries eventually settle down? (I don't know!)

No, we don't say that at all, but I think it would be helpful if we started out with some facts, which is why I've posted a couple of sources of reliable information.

The percentage of people who even try to come to the UK is miniscule in a global context. The UK is one of the richest countries on earth (still). We also have been (and still try to be) a big player on the world stage. Historically, people have admired the UK for so many reasons. If we have any hope of maintaining that position, we have to take our global responsibilities seriously.

Nobody is suggesting that we let them all come here though. I think that's a fallacy that's put around by the .... well, to be honest I don't know who is putting that around.

The numbers are absolutely minuscule compared to most other countries. You only have to look at the current Ukrainian crisis and we can see that many people wanted to go to Poland, Estonia etc so that they could be close to home when the chance comes for them to return. The whole world doesn't want to come here.

If there is no legal way for people to come here, then they will rely on the people traffickers. If there is a legal way then we are in control of the numbers that apply. Desperate people won't have to resort to desperate means. But right now if we keep on trying to stick our fingers in the dyke and not solve the real problem, when the flow really becomes huge we're going to drown.

This is very shouty.
twitter.com/WritesBright/status/1537332845919752192

p.s. - our wars and so on that eventually settled down? What were the Mayflower pilgrims except for refugees seeking religious freedom?

growstuff and I are not co-ordinating these responses, honestly ?

It depends how much this issue affects you personally I suppose.
If you’re in an area where migrants are having a negative impact on your life ( school places, housing, hospital waiting lists etc etc ) then you’ll say ‘stop! Enough! ‘ - & it’s usually the areas where there’s already social problems that migrants are settled.
If you’re a wealthy, middle class, professional living in a smart area unaffected by migrants then you’ll view it differently. Through Rose tinted spectacles maybe?

p.s. - our wars and so on that eventually settled down? What were the Mayflower pilgrims except for refugees seeking religious freedom?

The native Americans did not like that much, the pilgrims had guns and wiped most of them out

volver

Nobody is suggesting that we let them all come here though. I think that's a fallacy that's put around by the .... well, to be honest I don't know who is putting that around.

The numbers are absolutely minuscule compared to most other countries. You only have to look at the current Ukrainian crisis and we can see that many people wanted to go to Poland, Estonia etc so that they could be close to home when the chance comes for them to return. The whole world doesn't want to come here.

If there is no legal way for people to come here, then they will rely on the people traffickers. If there is a legal way then we are in control of the numbers that apply. Desperate people won't have to resort to desperate means. But right now if we keep on trying to stick our fingers in the dyke and not solve the real problem, when the flow really becomes huge we're going to drown.

This is very shouty.
twitter.com/WritesBright/status/1537332845919752192

p.s. - our wars and so on that eventually settled down? What were the Mayflower pilgrims except for refugees seeking religious freedom?

I could quote so many of the posts on here, as they say exactly what I think too!

In my opinion it is immoral to sit on our nice safe island, well fed and comfortable (not everyone I know, but this is how I picture the government!), pull up the drawbridge and then BLAME THE REFUGEES for risking their lives!

Katie59

p.s. - our wars and so on that eventually settled down? What were the Mayflower pilgrims except for refugees seeking religious freedom?

The native Americans did not like that much, the pilgrims had guns and wiped most of them out

OK then.

The Scots that went to Poland and the Netherlands after the '45.

The Jews that left England after the Edict of Expulsion.

Children who were evacuated to Canada during WW2.

"Wars that eventually settled down". There but for the grace of God.

Kandinsky

It depends how much this issue affects you personally I suppose.
If you’re in an area where migrants are having a negative impact on your life ( school places, housing, hospital waiting lists etc etc ) then you’ll say ‘stop! Enough! ‘ - & it’s usually the areas where there’s already social problems that migrants are settled.
If you’re a wealthy, middle class, professional living in a smart area unaffected by migrants then you’ll view it differently. Through Rose tinted spectacles maybe?

Most of those migrants came to the UK via perfectly legal and regulated routes. The UK needed them at one time and they have contributed to post-war economic growth. They are a different issue from the current situation, when so many people across the world have been displaced for one reason or other.

I’m not, along with most others denying those genuinely fleeing war entry into the UK. It’s the economic migrants that are entering illegally and destroying identity documents deliberately that needs to be addressed.

Katie59

I’m not, along with most others denying those genuinely fleeing war entry into the UK. It’s the economic migrants that are entering illegally and destroying identity documents deliberately that needs to be addressed.

Could you please put a figure on those?

Katie59

I’m not, along with most others denying those genuinely fleeing war entry into the UK. It’s the economic migrants that are entering illegally and destroying identity documents deliberately that needs to be addressed.

Where's your headbanger gif, volver?

We're supposed to be discussing humane ways of sorting out the one from the other, Katie59, not perpetrating the populist tropes...

fullfact.org/immigration/scott-benton-small-boats-economic-migrants/

Both my next door neighbours and their families are "economic migrants", but they have visas.

For MaizieD

volver

For MaizieD

?

What does this mean for claims related to economic migrants?
While there are data available relating to the nationality, sex and age profile of those arriving by small boat, it is not possible to know how many are ‘economic migrants’. There is a public interest in knowing this information and Home Office should consider what additional analysis could be developed and provided to help inform understanding of this issue.

Without this information, statements about the proportion of economic migrants arriving in small boats should not be made; they are not supported by data, and therefore have the potential to give a misleading picture.

osr.statisticsauthority.gov.uk/news/osr-statement-on-claims-related-to-economic-migrants/

In other words, the number of "economic migrants" is just not known, so anybody who makes a claim about the level of "economic migration" is not basing the claim on facts.

The question at the start of this thread was Can we discuss the migrant crisis in a sensible and humane way? Kandinsky raises something that has been used a few times lately had has become one of the Governments battle grounds; pretending that it’s only the “elite” who are saying we should have a proper refugee policy and that if the elite knew how hard life was for people then they would think differently.

But that’s another fallacy at the heart of this. People in disadvantaged areas where there are many immigrants are led to think that the reason for all their problems is the immigrants, whereas in fact the problem is that the government are underfunding necessary services. But it suits the government to make you think it’s all the fault of the foreigners and the elite. While telling you that the Eton educated, Bullingdon club men in country estates with £100,000 plus salaries are on your side. In addition, there are lots of credible sources explaining the truth of the situation around immigration, such as those growstuff posts, but people still trot out the same complaints about economic migrants and the world wanting to come here. I think the reason is fear and disempowerment.

whereas in fact the problem is that the government are underfunding necessary services

And they always will - so will Labour.

So the problem continues & continues & continues.

So how does blaming people who are innocent of the problem help Kandinsky?

Shouldn't we be campaigning for a government who tries to do things properly instead?

Yes we should, & hopefully one day we’ll get one.

??