Can we discuss the migrant crisis in a sensible and humane way?

They are just as likely to be doctors, engineers, teachers, driven from their countries by persecution for belonging to the wrong religion or supporting the wrong political party
The point is we don'y know who they are

That's true Maudi. Another unpleasant possiblity. Oh dear.

16:27HousePlantQueen

You don't know the ones in Devon who arrived by speed boat and were met by 2 cars are poor souls or are you that naive, they could be criminals terrorists murderers or rapists the point is we don't know who they are.

16:18Aveline

They could be terrorists regrouping to plan an attack, the problem is no one knows they have just disappeared.

paddyann54

Is there proof that many are destroying "their papers" ?
Surely papers are lost in wars .passports destroyed in bombings etc.
Lack of photographic ID doesn't invalidate someone or their need for help .

Eritreans aren't issued with passports except in exceptional circumstances. They don't have a choice.

Agreed Aveline, this episode in Devon is another reason why immigration has to be handled officially, swiftly and efficiently. Those poor souls and others like them have no recourse to state help, are likely to be enslaved or worse by people who are as evil as the people traffickers.

I'm still pondering. There are absolutely no easy answers. However, just thinking of the boatload that arrived in Devon yesterday and were quickly picked up by two people carriers. What would happen to them? They're not legally here so won't have the necessary papers etc to claim, well, anything. If they're given fake papers that is a crime but, worse, if not, then they're really prisoners of the traffickers. Potentially, slave labour with no rights or escape possibility or if female even worse. As I said, I was just trying to think through the possibilities for that boatload.

Is there proof that many are destroying "their papers" ?
Surely papers are lost in wars .passports destroyed in bombings etc.
Lack of photographic ID doesn't invalidate someone or their need for help .

??

Yes we should, & hopefully one day we’ll get one.

So how does blaming people who are innocent of the problem help Kandinsky?

Shouldn't we be campaigning for a government who tries to do things properly instead?

whereas in fact the problem is that the government are underfunding necessary services

And they always will - so will Labour.

So the problem continues & continues & continues.

The question at the start of this thread was Can we discuss the migrant crisis in a sensible and humane way? Kandinsky raises something that has been used a few times lately had has become one of the Governments battle grounds; pretending that it’s only the “elite” who are saying we should have a proper refugee policy and that if the elite knew how hard life was for people then they would think differently.

But that’s another fallacy at the heart of this. People in disadvantaged areas where there are many immigrants are led to think that the reason for all their problems is the immigrants, whereas in fact the problem is that the government are underfunding necessary services. But it suits the government to make you think it’s all the fault of the foreigners and the elite. While telling you that the Eton educated, Bullingdon club men in country estates with £100,000 plus salaries are on your side. In addition, there are lots of credible sources explaining the truth of the situation around immigration, such as those growstuff posts, but people still trot out the same complaints about economic migrants and the world wanting to come here. I think the reason is fear and disempowerment.

What does this mean for claims related to economic migrants?
While there are data available relating to the nationality, sex and age profile of those arriving by small boat, it is not possible to know how many are ‘economic migrants’. There is a public interest in knowing this information and Home Office should consider what additional analysis could be developed and provided to help inform understanding of this issue.

Without this information, statements about the proportion of economic migrants arriving in small boats should not be made; they are not supported by data, and therefore have the potential to give a misleading picture.

osr.statisticsauthority.gov.uk/news/osr-statement-on-claims-related-to-economic-migrants/

In other words, the number of "economic migrants" is just not known, so anybody who makes a claim about the level of "economic migration" is not basing the claim on facts.

volver

For MaizieD

?

For MaizieD

Both my next door neighbours and their families are "economic migrants", but they have visas.

fullfact.org/immigration/scott-benton-small-boats-economic-migrants/

Katie59

I’m not, along with most others denying those genuinely fleeing war entry into the UK. It’s the economic migrants that are entering illegally and destroying identity documents deliberately that needs to be addressed.

Where's your headbanger gif, volver?

We're supposed to be discussing humane ways of sorting out the one from the other, Katie59, not perpetrating the populist tropes...

Katie59

I’m not, along with most others denying those genuinely fleeing war entry into the UK. It’s the economic migrants that are entering illegally and destroying identity documents deliberately that needs to be addressed.

Could you please put a figure on those?

I’m not, along with most others denying those genuinely fleeing war entry into the UK. It’s the economic migrants that are entering illegally and destroying identity documents deliberately that needs to be addressed.

Kandinsky

It depends how much this issue affects you personally I suppose.
If you’re in an area where migrants are having a negative impact on your life ( school places, housing, hospital waiting lists etc etc ) then you’ll say ‘stop! Enough! ‘ - & it’s usually the areas where there’s already social problems that migrants are settled.
If you’re a wealthy, middle class, professional living in a smart area unaffected by migrants then you’ll view it differently. Through Rose tinted spectacles maybe?

Most of those migrants came to the UK via perfectly legal and regulated routes. The UK needed them at one time and they have contributed to post-war economic growth. They are a different issue from the current situation, when so many people across the world have been displaced for one reason or other.

Katie59

p.s. - our wars and so on that eventually settled down? What were the Mayflower pilgrims except for refugees seeking religious freedom?

The native Americans did not like that much, the pilgrims had guns and wiped most of them out

OK then.

The Scots that went to Poland and the Netherlands after the '45.

The Jews that left England after the Edict of Expulsion.

Children who were evacuated to Canada during WW2.

"Wars that eventually settled down". There but for the grace of God.

volver

Nobody is suggesting that we let them all come here though. I think that's a fallacy that's put around by the .... well, to be honest I don't know who is putting that around.

The numbers are absolutely minuscule compared to most other countries. You only have to look at the current Ukrainian crisis and we can see that many people wanted to go to Poland, Estonia etc so that they could be close to home when the chance comes for them to return. The whole world doesn't want to come here.

If there is no legal way for people to come here, then they will rely on the people traffickers. If there is a legal way then we are in control of the numbers that apply. Desperate people won't have to resort to desperate means. But right now if we keep on trying to stick our fingers in the dyke and not solve the real problem, when the flow really becomes huge we're going to drown.

This is very shouty.
twitter.com/WritesBright/status/1537332845919752192

p.s. - our wars and so on that eventually settled down? What were the Mayflower pilgrims except for refugees seeking religious freedom?

I could quote so many of the posts on here, as they say exactly what I think too!

In my opinion it is immoral to sit on our nice safe island, well fed and comfortable (not everyone I know, but this is how I picture the government!), pull up the drawbridge and then BLAME THE REFUGEES for risking their lives!

p.s. - our wars and so on that eventually settled down? What were the Mayflower pilgrims except for refugees seeking religious freedom?

The native Americans did not like that much, the pilgrims had guns and wiped most of them out