Tories lose both by-elections.

volver not touchy at all

In fact I am relaxing in a very nice hotel bar in London waiting for AC to join us and for our room to be ready, cheers ?

GrannyGravy13

Lucca see my post of 14.04

I have but I still don’t understand !

Envy your afternoon & evening GG13 ! ??

Back to the topic in hand.
Like many on here, I find itincredible what is happening to this country. I remember the darkest days of the three day week during the Heath premiership when bodies were not buried and rubbish and rats piled up in the streets. But at least you could see a doctor, get a hospital bed, get a new driving licence or a passport, fill your car up and not be ruined!

Katie59

Starmers problem is that he is not “yet” an inspirational leader, the sort of personality that will attract votes from the middle ground floating voters. With the Tories making such a mess that should not be an unreasonable aim in 2 yrs “if” the rest of the party backs him.

Not an unreasonable aim at all. He has, however, expelled a good many of the party members and alienated a good many others, those that are left are beginning to wonder how much longer they should give him. I don't see the Wakefield result as an endorsement of Starmer so much as a rejection of Johnson.

In any future Lab / LD coalition, the LDs will insist on electoral reform, which will make the chance of a future huge Tory majority vanish.
last one under system that gives a big advantage to Tories.

If you're 50, you'll have spent 62% of your life under a Tory govt 62% of us oppose. Reform will fix that democratic injustice.

The next GE will be a war for political survival for the Tory right...

because if they lose, Tory moderates will re-emerge - Rory Stewart, Dominic Grieve style of Tory (who have currently vacated the party entirely). It's inevitable. Under PR you can realistically only win from the centre.

Russ Jones

This gives me hope

Ilovecheese

Katie59

Starmers problem is that he is not “yet” an inspirational leader, the sort of personality that will attract votes from the middle ground floating voters. With the Tories making such a mess that should not be an unreasonable aim in 2 yrs “if” the rest of the party backs him.

Not an unreasonable aim at all. He has, however, expelled a good many of the party members and alienated a good many others, those that are left are beginning to wonder how much longer they should give him. I don't see the Wakefield result as an endorsement of Starmer so much as a rejection of Johnson.

Well, I rejoined the party because of Keir.

Ilovecheese

Katie59

Starmers problem is that he is not “yet” an inspirational leader, the sort of personality that will attract votes from the middle ground floating voters. With the Tories making such a mess that should not be an unreasonable aim in 2 yrs “if” the rest of the party backs him.

Not an unreasonable aim at all. He has, however, expelled a good many of the party members and alienated a good many others, those that are left are beginning to wonder how much longer they should give him. I don't see the Wakefield result as an endorsement of Starmer so much as a rejection of Johnson.

Agreed

The pointless Kier Starmer

On Thursday, Labour under Keir Starmer got a lower percentage of the vote in Wakefield than they did in 2017 under Jeremy Corbyn. In 2017 Labour got 49.7%. On Thursday they got 47.9%. I want you to think that through.

Inflation is soaring. Consumer confidence in the economy has gone through a steeper plummet, and to a lower level, than at any time since it was measured. Worse than the 2008 banking collapse. Worse than the height of the covid panic.

The Tory government of Boris Johnson is highly unpopular. The electorate has formed the view that Boris Johnson is an untrustworthy liar and plain chancer. 18th century levels of corruption have not just returned, but been plainly exposed.

There could not possibly be a more fertile ground for an opposition party in a mid-term by-election, when swings against the government are almost invariably much higher than at subsequent general elections. For Labour in these circumstances to still get a lower vote share in Wakefield than they did in the 2017 General Election which they narrowly lost, is a terrible performance.

The attempts to boost the hapless Starmer off the back of it are pathetic.

Starmer’s role has been simply to emasculate the Labour Party, and to purge it of any elements that might seek to pose a threat to rampant neo-liberalism and wealth inequality. His efforts to ban Labour MPs from supporting striking railway workers must be anathema to anybody who has the slightest feel for the history and traditions of that party and indeed the most basic understanding of its very raison d’etre.

www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2022/06/the-pointless-keir-starmer/

Katie59

Starmers problem is that he is not “yet” an inspirational leader, the sort of personality that will attract votes from the middle ground floating voters. With the Tories making such a mess that should not be an unreasonable aim in 2 yrs “if” the rest of the party backs him.

Again, I think this is the plan. Looking at past "inspirational" leaders, they become that over time in office. We have a cult of personality backed by very little tangible evidence that anything is inspiring about the person.

The General Election is due no later than 2024 - just two years. There is much speculation that it could come earlier. Interestingly, this week David Lammy gave us some insight into Labour's plans regarding the EU. I would expect more of this in other areas if the GE looks as if it will be brought forward.

This builds towards a picture of a man of substance, a man who plans. Which, even the Daily Mail would have to admit, looks rather quite different to the man who throws money at his latest "great idea" while not ensuring the country works properly and that children can eat and stay warm.

But Labour still won Wakefield back after losing it when Corbyn was leader - that's all that matters with the current system.

DaisyAnne

Katie59

Starmers problem is that he is not “yet” an inspirational leader, the sort of personality that will attract votes from the middle ground floating voters. With the Tories making such a mess that should not be an unreasonable aim in 2 yrs “if” the rest of the party backs him.

Again, I think this is the plan. Looking at past "inspirational" leaders, they become that over time in office. We have a cult of personality backed by very little tangible evidence that anything is inspiring about the person.

The General Election is due no later than 2024 - just two years. There is much speculation that it could come earlier. Interestingly, this week David Lammy gave us some insight into Labour's plans regarding the EU. I would expect more of this in other areas if the GE looks as if it will be brought forward.

This builds towards a picture of a man of substance, a man who plans. Which, even the Daily Mail would have to admit, looks rather quite different to the man who throws money at his latest "great idea" while not ensuring the country works properly and that children can eat and stay warm.

I agree DaisyAnne, the other thing he is having to do is reform the party, which was direly needed. A lot of it’s behind the scenes.

growstuff

But Labour still won Wakefield back after losing it when Corbyn was leader - that's all that matters with the current system.

? Quite!!

Grany - In 2019, Labour got 39.8%. This week it was 47.9%.
Still, as we know, you’d rather have the Tories in power than a Labour Party with a leader who may appeal to a broader electorate than for example, Mr Corbyn

Grany you have spectacularly missed the point that the country will not elect a left wing Labour Party. The ground is of course fertile for an effective opposition party, I’m sorry though, it’s not the party you envisage.

The Conservatives talk about ‘levelling up’. But, imo, that’s totally what Keir stands for. Maybe I’m wrong but I feel that he’s someone who wants to be PM because he wants everyone to have the opportunity to make the most of their lives. And that is without dividing the rich from the poor, the old from the young. And he realises that you can’t achieve anything if you can’t get elected. That’s why I’m going to do everything in my power to get him elected.

This Tony Benn quote from the 1980’s has come into vogue because it is prophetic, and the process appears now complete:

If the Labour Party could be bullied or persuaded to denounce its Marxists, the media – having tasted blood – would demand next that it expelled all its Socialists and reunited the remaining Labour Party with the SDP to form a harmless alternative to the Conservatives, which could then be allowed to take office now and then when the Conservatives fell out of favour with the public. Thus British Capitalism, it is argued, will be made safe forever, and socialism would be squeezed off the National agenda. But if such a strategy were to succeed… it would in fact profoundly endanger British society. For it would open up the danger of a swing to the far-right, as we have seen in Europe over the last 50 years.
Starmer is in one sense the apotheosis of this process. Not only has he acted to purge the Labour Party of socialism, he also offers so very little of a meaningful alternative to the Tories that there is very little danger of the Tories being voted out of office. Not only is he a safe right-wing backstop, he is a self-redundant safe right-wing backstop.

Just as Jeremy Corbyn did before being felled by the entirely fake anti-Semitism crusade of the united state and corporate media, Mick Lynch has this week been showing how attractive the electorate find left-wing thinking, and the notion of greater wealth equality, if they could only get to hear it.

We elected an PM with so called “personality” and look where that got us, a complete car crash.

Do you seriously think that it was just anti-Semitism that saw Corbyn ousted Grany? He was ousted because people didn’t trust him, the public at large don’t want a left wing agenda pursued - socialist yes, left wing no. I admired Tony Benn, but even his most ardent admirer wouldn’t claim he was mainstream - he was, if you will, the Labour Party equivalent of my least favourite Tory, Smogg.

Casdon

Do you seriously think that it was just anti-Semitism that saw Corbyn ousted Grany? He was ousted because people didn’t trust him, the public at large don’t want a left wing agenda pursued - socialist yes, left wing no. I admired Tony Benn, but even his most ardent admirer wouldn’t claim he was mainstream - he was, if you will, the Labour Party equivalent of my least favourite Tory, Smogg.

Why didn't people trust Jeremy Corbyn after 2017 because of the sustained targeted attack by all media. He was and is a decent honourable man. Left wing is socialist. I am left wing, a socialist. Tony Benn was a socialist an admirable man though rich stood up for the poor, a true socialist. He can't be in no way compared to mogg a snivelling nasty individual and a Tory

Oh, it is so easy to blame the media, its is the comment that doesn't require thought and insults everybody by asssuming they are too stupid not to see through media hype and reach their own conclusions.

As far as I am concerned Corbyn was a stupid man, a serial rebel, who was -driven, if such a strong word can be used of a mealy mouthed man like him, wby self interest and had , driven by narrow parochial views, with no tolerance for those who did not agree with him. Narrow in his views and with nothing but contempt for the broad church Labour always was. Oh, and he was also anti-semitic.

M0nica

Oh, it is so easy to blame the media, its is the comment that doesn't require thought and insults everybody by asssuming they are too stupid not to see through media hype and reach their own conclusions.

As far as I am concerned Corbyn was a stupid man, a serial rebel, who was -driven, if such a strong word can be used of a mealy mouthed man like him, wby self interest and had , driven by narrow parochial views, with no tolerance for those who did not agree with him. Narrow in his views and with nothing but contempt for the broad church Labour always was. Oh, and he was also anti-semitic.

Corbyn labour was broad church unlike Starmer. Decent man brought many people to the party to take an interest in politics for the first time. Especially young people who joined became members. He had a radical manifesto for change people liked. For the many not the few.

The media fooled you then thinking he was antisemitic

Casdon

Do you seriously think that it was just anti-Semitism that saw Corbyn ousted Grany? He was ousted because people didn’t trust him, the public at large don’t want a left wing agenda pursued - socialist yes, left wing no. I admired Tony Benn, but even his most ardent admirer wouldn’t claim he was mainstream - he was, if you will, the Labour Party equivalent of my least favourite Tory, Smogg.

Tony Benn became more popular the older he became. From rebel to the nation's favourite politician!

Corbyn just didn't have the same appeal.

I can see why you might like to think that has happened/is happening in that way but I don't agree Grany [Sat 25-Jun-22 21:21:58]. Because of our election system, only a small percentage of voters elect a government and any party wanting power will have to appeal to as big a cross-section as possible.

I don't think the people you call "Socialists" (many claim that nomenclature) appeal enough to win under our current system or to have a large number of seats in their own right under any other. I don't mean they are wrong to believe what they believe, just that extremes do not attract large numbers of voters. The same applies to the far-right. They, on their own, will not be able to call on large numbers of votes. Without the amorphous Brexit allowing them to control the larger cohort of less extreme Conservatives, they would not have had anything like the vote they momentarily received.

Blaming the media for Corbyn’s downfall is simplistic and wrong. Corbyn had time to convince people he was s prime minister in waiting, to dismiss allegation of anti semitism. He did neither. He was out of his depth when given real responsibility. He’s much happier in rebel/victim mode.

He was grumpy and irritable during interviews. The way his supporters continue to deny he presided over the increase in anti semitism says a great deal about them, none of it positive.

Interesting Grany, you concentrated on my throw-away remark at the end rather than the substance and if consorting with terrorists and lying about is a sign of 'decency'. I will in future steer clear of anyone described as decenct.

Tony Benn had something Corbyn lacked and that was intelligence and a pelasant personality. I always felt he would be good company.