NHS sued by transgender male over surgery

This is being discussed on another thread, and yes, I think that it is a difficult one.

I agree that the case is tragic, and would like to see much tighter controls on who is allowed to encourage children and young people to believe that they are transgender, but we have an age of majority for a reason.

If 25 year olds are not allowed to make decisions about their own body, when can they do so? Do we want a minimum age of 30? Who makes the decisions until then - their parents? I wouldn't want to make decisions like that on behalf of my children (although I might have liked the chance to veto my daughter's tattoo grin).

I think the responsibility starts way before the stage of an operation, but it is not easy to stop the influence of trends like this one with legislation. I am sure that a lot of people such as teachers and counsellors are acting in what they genuinely believe to be the best interests of the child, but IMO that is because they have been brainwashed by Stonewall. Can we stop pressure groups from existing? Well, we can - but do we want to do that in a democracy? Can we stop people from giving what they consider to be helpful advice to children? Again, we can, but won't that stop children from getting help with genuine problems? And anyway, who gets to decide what is 'genuine' and what isn't?

It's a mess, and had been for years. The chickens are coming home to roost now, though.

I think it's difficult to comment on an individual case, I think it would be helpful for there to be an immediate review of the treatment for those with gender dysphoria supported by long term data. This does not appear to be the case which is deeply troubling as are the reports from whistleblowers within the tavistock clinic. I suspect we are going to look back at this in years to come and realise we failed gay people, trans people and women.

Waste if NHS resources!

I don't think that the fact that 'WE paid for' the operation is important here. It would have been an equally tragic situation if the patient had paid for it privately.

I think the important thing is that surgery has been carried out on an ideological basis. The whole notion of 'gender' is ideological, not medical.

What does it mean to be 'in the wrong gender'? Nothing, really. Gender is just a name for behaviours that our society (as opposed to some others) at this time (as opposed to times in the past, and probably others in the future) has decided are appropriate for the different sexes. We are living in a time when many people enjoy doing things that were once considered more suitable for the opposite sex. Many women are breadwinners. Men push prams and change nappies. Children play with dolls or trains regardless of whether they are boys or girls. There are those who feel that when this happens it means that something is wrong. It can't be a case of norms changing, or of people deciding to broaden the scope of what constitutes 'gender'. Instead, they feel that 'gender' is so rigid that if someone wants to do things reserved for the other sex it must be their bodies who are at fault, and these should be changed, or at least that the transgressors should 'transition' and 'live as' the opposite sex, rather than just being themselves and enjoying rugby as a woman or cake decoration as a man. It's an entirely ideological concept that is now often treated as medical.

If it is true that a more accepting approach to homosexuality would have prevented this from happening, that is surely proof that transgender is not absolute? If it were, then no amount of acceptance of other issues would prevent it.

I agree with Galaxy that there should be an urgent review of the situation, with no input from pressure groups with a vested interest in the hormones and other drugs that transitioned people need to take for the rest of their lives, or in taking safe spaces and single-sex status away from women.

Sometimes it takes a high-profile and expensive case for reviews like this to happen. They make those who have to pay out sit up and take notice, and bring the issue into the public eye. Tragic as this is for the person concerned, it might turn out to do some good. I hope that any compensation awarded can be used to get psychiatric help to deal with the consequences of this surgery as well as the underlying issues that led to it in the first place.

Chestnut

I feel sorry for the suffering he is going through now, although it was totally self inflicted. This confirms that the NHS should not get involved in this kind of operation due to the potential fall-out.

What concerns me more are the 12-18 year olds who are being told they can change sex if they want. That age group are likely confused enough so this is a recipe for disaster. Large numbers of youngsters are now claiming they are transgender, so it's either female hormones in the water or mass hysteria. It looks like there will be a lot of regretful people around when these operations become more frequent. Yet another reason why the NHS should not get involved, there will be too many of them.

What concerns me more are the 12-18 year olds who are being told they can change sex if they want. That age group are likely confused enough so this is a recipe for disaster. Large numbers of youngsters are now claiming they are transgender, so it's either female hormones in the water or mass hysteria.

That's what worries me, too Chetnut

Back in the 50s - the 'unenlightened' 50s - I went through a phase where I rejected femininity and all the restrictions it placed on my life, both as a child and as a young teen just starting work.

I hated that I was dressed in a pretty 'frock' and had to keep it and myself clean when I went out to play, whilst the boys I played with could ride around on bikes and get oil on their trousers, climb lamp-posts without worrying about showing their underwear, etc, etc.

Then when I started work I resented the fact that I had to wear a skirt and blouse - the bloody thing never stayed tucked in, and the skirts were restrictive. It would have been frowned on if women wore trousers then - or 'trews' as they were called, some offices would have forbidden it. At weekends I donned jeans (girls were just starting to wear men's jeans at that time) and went camping with the lads who basically treated me as one of them. Bliss!

But that changed virtually overnight when I took a fancy to one of the 'lads' which was reciprocal, and I suddenly relished being a girl, experimented with make-up, nail varnish and clothes. And that was it, the end of wishing I'd been born a boy.

I could have quite easily been persuaded that I was in the wrong body, had we the culture then that we do now. And who knows what stupid decisions I might have made. It was just a passing phase - brought about I now realise by my resentment of a patriarchal society forcing stereotypes on women. I was, in fact, simply a budding feminist!

If 25 year olds are not allowed to make decisions about their own body, when can they do so? Do we want a minimum age of 30?

At present, if a young woman wants to be sterilised she is told to wait until she is at least 30 and, preferably, has at least 2 children.
Even if she is expecting her 5th child, like someone I know personally, she will be told to have counseling first because pregnant women can't be trusted to know their own minds, according to doctors' policies.

Grantanow

Waste if NHS resources!

The treatment, the legal action or both?

It looks like there will be a lot of regretful people around when these operations become more frequent.

I hope that this case may be a factor in the operations not becoming more frequent - by shining a light on the current situation.
That may well be the young man's hope too in which case those who say "He wanted it so too bad." are missing the point.

he said he know realises he was gay not transgender and isn't that something that has been raised before wrt anti gay feeling/religious motivation when coming out as transgender rather than gay?

It is quite concerning really as there is nothing wrong with being gay (or transgender)

JaneJudge

he said he know realises he was gay not transgender and isn't that something that has been raised before wrt anti gay feeling/religious motivation when coming out as transgender rather than gay?

It is quite concerning really as there is nothing wrong with being gay (or transgender)

He said his family made jokes and thought being gay was disgusting. I really think this could have all been avoided had he grown up in an accepting household

Yes many gay people are raising concerns that this treatment is a form of conversion therapy for people who are gay. Whistleblowers at the Tavistock made claims about homophobia in the parents of children at the Tavistock.

People should also listen to the accounts made be Susie Green (CEO of Memaids) about her husbands behaviour.

Sorry I dont want it to sound as if I am blaming parents, many are flailing around trying to find answers. We should never have got into this situation. I suspect that the legal cases will spread further than the NHS.

Some parents, and others, are homophobic. It's a fact.
Medical professionals should not be disregarding that or leaving it out of consideration altogether, when treating distressed people inc children.

It was made obvious in the TV play "Butterfly" yet that was hailed as making the case in favour of transition of children.
(I think Max, in the play, was about 11 or 12 when started on hormone blockers).

FarNorth

*If 25 year olds are not allowed to make decisions about their own body, when can they do so? Do we want a minimum age of 30?*

At present, if a young woman wants to be sterilised she is told to wait until she is at least 30 and, preferably, has at least 2 children.
Even if she is expecting her 5th child, like someone I know personally, she will be told to have counseling first because pregnant women can't be trusted to know their own minds, according to doctors' policies.

Yes, which is why I am uneasy about moving the age of majority when it comes to health issues. Either we are adults at 18 or we are not.

As an older woman I now think that 25 year olds are very young, but I don't see a way around it - adults have to make their own decisions, and that's what happened here. It would be better if we tightened up on allowing surgery, so that people had to have the approval of a doctor and a psychiatrist, as well as 'living as' the opposite sex for a period, but that's probably the best we can hope for if there is not a culture shift away from allowing unqualified people to interfere when children don't conform to stereotypes.

Galaxy

Yes many gay people are raising concerns that this treatment is a form of conversion therapy for people who are gay. Whistleblowers at the Tavistock made claims about homophobia in the parents of children at the Tavistock.

Of course it is. Homophobia, along with misogyny, underpins a lot of the trans rights movement. It is deeply concerning.

I think he had misplaced expectations if he expected his body not to be left with numbness after such intricate surgery.
I have a permanently numb face on one side caused by having a wisdom tooth out.
It was rare, but happened, I was told beforehand.
I also have no feeling around my caesarean scar.
Neuropathy is an issue for a lot of people after cancer surgery.

It’s a Strange world we inhabit, we condemn FGM brutally and for no medical reason practised in some counties, which rightly so is illegal and banned in UK. While at the same time castration and mutilation, is now not only sanctioned but pushed and positively promoted on our young confused adolescents. I hope this man’s plight will serve as a red flag to the creeping acceptance of this sinister practice.

I haven't read the article, but I'd be very surprised if it gave enough accurate facts for any of us to be sure of exactly whose fault anything was. But I'd like to correct a couple of misunderstandings as I see them on here - I have a close young transgender relative. The waiting list to be seen on the NHS is 2 YEARS! However, the wait to GO ON THE WAITING LIST WAS 14 MONTHS! This is because there are so few clincs. He knew he was transgender, because from a young age, he'd hated being in a girl's body, hated having to wear girl's clothes, hated having breasts, and, like many transgender people, felt suicidal at the thought at having to live the rest of his life feeling as though he hated his life as he was being forced to live it in a girl's body. The Transgender clinic demands that you live for 2 YEARS before you can have treatment of any sort (he was over 18 by this time). There really aren't doctors waiting in line to offer you hormones or rip your genitals off. It was taking so long to get anywhere, in the end he paid for his own double mastectomy. Like most trans people, he is not bothering with genital surgery. BTW J K Rowling is a good author, but not a trans expert, and when she denies trans people's right to exist, she is bound to be unpopular. There. I hope I've cleared some things up. There's so much rubbish in the papers, it's what sells them, but you don't have to believe it. Try asking a trans person. They're ordinary people, just wanting to get on with their lives unnoticed and they certainly don't want to attack anyone in the ladies toilet.

J K Rowling is a good author, but not a trans expert, and when she denies trans people's right to exist, she is bound to be unpopular

JK Rowling does not deny trans people'd right to exist, LankyDolly

This is what she had to say on the subject ...

“I respect every trans person’s right to live any way that feels authentic and comfortable to them. I’d march with you if you were discriminated against on the basis of being trans. At the same time, my life has been shaped by being female. I do not believe it’s hateful to say so.”

As for not wanting to attack anyone in ladies toilets, of course, most people, ( all people) don't go around attacking people in loos. But we all know that some do. I had an alarming experience in a loo in a department store in London when I was about 8.

Good article here about JK Rowling's feelings on the subject. I can't find anything wrong with what she says.

www.glamour.com/story/a-complete-breakdown-of-the-jk-rowling-transgender-comments-controversy

I don't think these operations should be carried out on the NHS either. Just my opinion. But I don't think they should be sued when someone realises they've made a massive mistake.

LankyDolly I am so glad he has your support.

I do think that a lot of nonsense is spoken about transgender people with little recognition or understanding of the real people behind the gender dysphoria.

It saddens me but young people are far more accepting and understand that gender norms likely has no impact on trans at all because there are many who are gender noncomforming too.

Acceptance must start at home for young people to have the best chance of navigating these things and it is good to see your comment

No-one can change sex.
Do what makes you feel comfortable but don't ask everyone to go along with a pretence that you have changed sex.
What is difficult about that?

LankyDolly did your relative have a burning wish to be a boy/ man, or a burning wish not to be a girl/ woman, or both?

Waiting lists for all kinds of ops on the NHS are 14 months or more. I'm not saying that's a good thing; but I don't see any need to SHOUT AT US to let us know that it is true for trans operations too.

A lot of women are unable to get HRT, whilst transwomen are given hormones to help their partial transitions (when it comes to the crunch, most don't go for genital surgery, so remain intact males). There needs to be a sensible conversation about who should get priority when there is a conflict of need like this.

LankyDolly, what was it that JKR said that makes you think that she deserves to be unpopular. If you can link to whatever it was that made you think this, that would be really helpful, as I've only ever heard apologists for those who persecute her give very vague 'she is transphobic, but I don't know why' answers.

LankyDolly

Just leaving you a quick note to say, you don't owe anyone any of your time or energy answering questions.

Especially when there is no chance of changing some minds around here

Nobody is obliged to answer anyone else, but there is little point in being on a discussion board if all you do is post and run.