NHS sued by transgender male over surgery

You are a bit behind the times glorianny. No debate ended a few years ago.

The only "rant" I've ever seen was when, on a previous thread, it was announced that "this is war". It was shocking to see, amongst all the other lucid, well researched and articulate arguments (even those you might not agree with), that the debate was reduced to such a base level. If that's the general stance of TRAs and their allies, it's little surprise that discussions, demonstrations and meetings descend into anger and violence and neither side is listening to the other.

There's no ranting that I can see either, Fanny.

Have you contributed to these threads, Glorianny? I've seen you advocating No Debate on another, but don't remember seeing this user name on ones about trans issues. ?

You are, of course, entitled to an opinion; but it seems 'odd' for someone who has such strong opinions not to have formed them from experience.

Glorianny. Chapter and verse please.

Well I'm sympathetic too and understanding of the trans community Glorianny which is why I'm so outraged at the bully 'boy' and intimidation tactics of TRA's and their supporters and their determination to silence anyone who doesn't agree.

They're damaging the very cause of the people they claim to be and represent and in relation to this particular thread, the 'push' that appears to be advocated for young people, and in some instances children, to begin to take steps to go down the trans route is as frightening as it is heartbreaking.

Agreed, Smileless.

It's wearing to keep being told that I am transphobic, homophobic, racist, yada yada, when anyone who knows me knows that I'm very far from being any of those things.

Also, I do listen to 'the other side', but on here there is often nothing to listen to, really. Whenever I ask questions in the hope that the answers will help me to understand more about the cause of TRAs I am met with a flounce, or 'you are hectoring'.

Here are just a few:

What is a woman (or a man)?
In what ways are transpeople 'the most marginalised group in society'?
Which human rights are they being denied?
How are midwives qualified to 'assign' a 'gender' to a newborn?
As 'gender' is a social construct, how can someone 'be in the wrong body' because they identify more with the norms associated with the opposite sex?
Is there any other example of laws being changed/made on the basis of 'feelings'?

Glorianny

Having followed a few of these threads I would advise anyone who is sympathetic and understanding about the trans community not to engage. There are a few posters who keep these threads going. They will insist they are understanding and concerned about trans people, then post perpetually about how it is just a stage, and also use the thread to post any instances they can dredge up about people who commit crimes or assaults ,dressed as women, and link these to the trans community. Replying will never change them and it just gives them the opportunity to keep castigating transpeople. Let them rant if it makes them feel better but ignore them.

‘Sympathetic and understanding of the trans community’

Most people posting are sympathetic and understanding of the trans community. The difficulty arises with transactivists, especially the ones who threaten feminists who express concerns about safe women only spaces. I’ve mentioned previously the experience of three women I know well who were told they’d be raped to death because the contributed to a debate on women’s safe spaces. Different age groups, not transphobic.

I think it's a good thing that there are GN's who are sympathetic and understanding of the trans community or we wouldn't have the informative and thought provoking posts we've seen on this thread, and others on this subject.

GN's who are prepared to discuss rather than try and close the discussions down.

Glorianny

Having followed a few of these threads I would advise anyone who is sympathetic and understanding about the trans community not to engage. There are a few posters who keep these threads going. They will insist they are understanding and concerned about trans people, then post perpetually about how it is just a stage, and also use the thread to post any instances they can dredge up about people who commit crimes or assaults ,dressed as women, and link these to the trans community. Replying will never change them and it just gives them the opportunity to keep castigating transpeople. Let them rant if it makes them feel better but ignore them.

Are any of the reports of attacks untrue?

Are any of the reports about speakers, authors etc being harangued, abused, spat at etc; untrue?

The reports come from legitimate mainstream newspapers, few (about this abuse), come from any dubious internet source - they tend to come from TW supporters.

To be clear, I have no problem at all if a male wants to go off and live as a woman.

If he really is deluded enough to think this makes him the same as a biological woman, then it's his prerogative to think like that.

But, the majority, on here, and in the country, refuse to take part in this deluded behaviour.

Biological female rights and freedoms have been hard won, over decades, and we have got no intention of being shoved aside because some men want to be a woman.

It's misogyny by stealth.

Has anyone realised that the so-called "epidemic" of trans and non-binary youth is because it is finally becoming less stigmatised to be the person who you really want to be? Young people of school age are more accepting and open-minded and realise that sexuality and gender identity are on a continuum. Even biological sex has a myriad of variations. I wrote my MSC dissertation on the subject. You are on the wrong side of history if you do not enlighten yourself in these matters. But it was always the same between older and younger generations.

Schools most definitely do not "promote" anything to do with sexuality or gender identity. Thatcher made any mention of such things illegal. I see what Glorianny means about wasting time and energy posting about these matters and won't post after this. It really comes down to walking a mile in these very vulnerable and usually very unhappy people's shoes (unhappy, that is, until they get the care, support, love and acceptance they deserve - bur even then they walk in fear of rejection or even violence every day of their lives).

I presume that those who say trans people shouldn't get gender reassignment surgery on the NHS are comfortable with them committing suicide because they can't go on as they are? It doesn't matter whether they can't bear being the gender they are or desperately want to be a different gender.

Lastly, Violetsky, I don't need to find references for you to J K Rowling's tweets and remarks. They're difficult to avoid if you have empathy for trans women and believe they are women, which I do. There are plenty of people who explain better than I can why they're transphobic, too.

The NHS waiting lists are horrendous (post Covid), at the moment.

Many people with painful, or life shortening or even "crisis" things, such as Cancer/Heart disease/kidney disease, are waiting much longer for treatment/operations than they should be.

There are many people, on TV and in newspapers, weeping, almost daily, about how living with what they've got, and no treatment in sight, is making them suicidal.

I feel sad for anyone suicidal, but if the NHS have to prioritise, which they do, then physically life threatening things, have to come above gender issues.

Poor violet she s agreeing with you

Has anyone realised that the so-called "epidemic" of trans and non-binary youth is because it is finally becoming less stigmatised to be the person who you really want to be?

Being the person you really want to be shouldn't involve having dangerous surgery and/or taking hormone medication that will ruin your health.

FarNorth

^Has anyone realised that the so-called "epidemic" of trans and non-binary youth is because it is finally becoming less stigmatised to be the person who you really want to be?^

Being the person you really want to be shouldn't involve having dangerous surgery and/or taking hormone medication that will ruin your health.

Especially if they're going to sue the NHS, when they realise what a ghastly mistake they've made.

The NHS needs all the funds it has for services.

And being the person you really want to be shouldn't involve seeking to erode the rights of others.

Totally agree. I think that wheel is beginning to turn though, ever so slowly. The general public are getting fed up with the tail wagging the dog.

Urmstongran

Totally agree. I think that wheel is beginning to turn though, ever so slowly. The general public are getting fed up with the tail wagging the dog.

Yep, I agree with you. ?

The public are waking up.

LankyDolly

Has anyone realised that the so-called "epidemic" of trans and non-binary youth is because it is finally becoming less stigmatised to be the person who you really want to be? Young people of school age are more accepting and open-minded and realise that sexuality and gender identity are on a continuum. Even biological sex has a myriad of variations. I wrote my MSC dissertation on the subject. You are on the wrong side of history if you do not enlighten yourself in these matters. But it was always the same between older and younger generations.

Schools most definitely do not "promote" anything to do with sexuality or gender identity. Thatcher made any mention of such things illegal. I see what Glorianny means about wasting time and energy posting about these matters and won't post after this. It really comes down to walking a mile in these very vulnerable and usually very unhappy people's shoes (unhappy, that is, until they get the care, support, love and acceptance they deserve - bur even then they walk in fear of rejection or even violence every day of their lives).

I presume that those who say trans people shouldn't get gender reassignment surgery on the NHS are comfortable with them committing suicide because they can't go on as they are? It doesn't matter whether they can't bear being the gender they are or desperately want to be a different gender.

Lastly, Violetsky, I don't need to find references for you to J K Rowling's tweets and remarks. They're difficult to avoid if you have empathy for trans women and believe they are women, which I do. There are plenty of people who explain better than I can why they're transphobic, too.

I am pro trans, you probably didn't realise I quoted someone else

I avoid these discussions now because there are a handful of names who arent capable of reasonable discussion and cannot understand that trans people and their allies arent some sort of homogeneous mass amd arent responsible for the words or deeds of others.

They make these discussions a boring waste of time by resorting to untruths and personal attacks

They are also not willing to try to look for solutions to their own problems so... Well that

So I dont bother unless there are more reasonable people around with open minds

Which person are you saying has a closed mind VS?

Well TBF I think everyone who has contributed to this discussion is pro trans it's just that some contributors are more open to accepting that just because it's 'pro trans' doesn't necessarily mean that it's right, and if something is regarded as wrong, that doesn't mean it's ant trans/transphobic.

Why is there not a movement saying that sex based stereotypes should be abandoned?
Oh, hang on, that's what feminists were saying but they were mostly ignored.

Outdated stereotypes were the main reason for some people to feel that they must be in the wrong body.
Yet, now, those same outdated stereotypes are being used as proof that a child or young person is 'trans'.
I'd be interested to see any such proof that is not based on stereotypes.

I suggest that trans people own their reality as trans, or gender-non-conforming, while not claiming to be the opposite sex from their real one.

Which person are you saying has a closed mind VS

Ermmmm.... anyone who doesn't agree with them?

FarNorth

Why is there not a movement saying that sex based stereotypes should be abandoned?
Oh, hang on, that's what feminists were saying but they were mostly ignored.

Outdated stereotypes were the main reason for some people to feel that they must be in the wrong body.
Yet, now, those same outdated stereotypes are being used as proof that a child or young person is 'trans'.
I'd be interested to see any such proof that is not based on stereotypes.

I suggest that trans people own their reality as trans, or gender-non-conforming, while not claiming to be the opposite sex from their real one.

Oh FarNorth - THANKYOU

As a 1949 dob who found women’s liberation in the lay 60’s, early 70’s, I’m used to being told by some transactivists that I’m a terf. I veer between feeling offended and proud.
My friends as sisters tried to raise our children without the gender stereotype straight jacket. Our children were raised gender neutral as best we could.
We committed ourselves to supporting Womens Aid, refuges for women and children. I could go on but mt point is, I’m sick of being accused of lacking understanding or compassion for trans people. It’s c***.

?? Iam64.

Looking back, so did we Iam. We didn't restrict them to toys and activities we thought were for boys and neither did our friends with their sons and daughters.

The thing is, we didn't make a song and dance about it either because it was enough to give them a childhood in which they were free to be themselves, without having to be seen doing it.