Doctors want a 30% pay rise!

Urmstongran

^I also wonder if we are expected to subsidise the training of these doctors before they start practising in the private sector?^

A point I made earlier MaizieD.

I don't think it was the same as the point that I was making. I was referring to when we have a fully privatised health service.

Casdon - yes it’s about hospital doctors but the criticism of GP’s inevitably gets mentioned.

It’s like Groundhog Day. To repeat, for the second or third time on this thread this pay award is NOT about GPS. GPs are contractors, not NHS employees. It is about hospital doctors.

I’ve seen my GP four times in recent months. I’ve also had four telephone consultations.
We have had weekly meetings with our GP to discuss my husband’s diagnosis and treatment, they’re now reducing to monthly.
Other family members have been seen at the surgery, it’s always busy.

No one I know has seen a GP. Are they still in surgeries? Hidden away in a safe corner, who knows. Everything is passed on to A and E. Everyone else working as normal, loads working very long hours and still can't feed their families. I don't feel sorry for GP. If they were paid for every patient they see I wonder how much they would get. Working from home should be banned. The real heroes are A and E they are coping with everything, they must be on their knees. Shop assistants and other low paid workers carried on all through the worst of the pandemic. I used to thank them, they were just as worried about Covid as we all were, I daresay the doctors were glad of them, so they should treat them.

varian

That's a brexit bonus Smileless. There was no problem six years ago.

There was at my surgery.

I also wonder if we are expected to subsidise the training of these doctors before they start practising in the private sector?

A point I made earlier MaizieD.

A recent Policy Exchange document, approved by Sajid Javid, explains the aim for the general practice service, which is to replace the current model of GP owned practices with a national 111-type service within 10 years. This is the new "efficiency" he was talking about a couple of weeks ago.

We should all support doctors and be prepared to spend much more of this nations so called wealth on public health care rather than slagging doctors off all the time. Waiting times and pressure on the NHS will only get worse with this attitude. I know U.K. trained drs who have left for Canada, NZ, Germany in recent years including a cardiologist and his kidney specialist wife who are now working in a state of the art hospital in Paris ( they pop back to see the family).

25Avalon

How are we going to pay for it? Inflation is rising and this can only increase it. It’s a vicious circle. Not saying nobody deserves more just how can it be done?

I have told you all, over and over again, how we can pay for it.

The government doesn't want to pay for it

Current inflation is price led, not wages led. BTW. And some companies are taking our money in inflated prices and making massive profits which go in inflated executive wages and dividends to shareholders. They should be taxed,; dividends should be taxed at the same rate as PAYE. Executive pay rates should be capped.

(The very last thing the government should be doing is drive larger and larger numbers of the working population into poverty; poverty that will have a knock on effect in the economy.)

DaisyAnne

MaizieD

varian

Are doctors the latest target of the right wing press?

Looks like it.

Criminal barristers want 25%. Can we all get hysterical about that too...?

It's just another stone in the wall of privatising the NHS. Drive more doctors away and we will all end up with a choice of a very basic NHS with much not available or privatised health care.

You would almost think there was a plan, wouldn't you?

Those were my thoughts, too, DaisyAnne. I wonder how much doctors employed by private health provides are paid?
I also wonder if we are expected to subsidise the training of these doctors before they start practising in the private sector?

Slightly off tangent, but I've been reading a twitter thread about Roe & Wade and one of the things that the writer pointed out was that many of the poorer women forced to carry unwanted babies wouldn't be able to afford the cost of a hospital birth.

Accepting privatisation of the health service is disastrous. For all their wonderful, if you can afford it, medical care, life expectancy in the US is lower than that in the UK.

Yes, we desperately need more. Why is it so hard to get into medical school? I’ve heard places are restricted and students scramble for them. Demand is higher than supply. I wonder why this is?

It’s hard to get in because you need people of the highest calibre*. Places are indeed restricted, partly due to the cost of training and partly because there aren’t enough clinical places for the students to be placed into. Much training takes place in hospital, not in a lecture theatre. A consultant can only supervise so many people at one time and patients probably wouldn’t appreciate 20 students at a time peering at them rather than four or five.

*There is a newer type of healthcare professional called a Physician Associate. It’s a 2yr postgraduate training and they can do the same basic tasks that a junior dr can do. However, people often won’t see them because they’re not doctors, even though they’re well-versed in their subject.

Though sometimes people also won’t see my dd, because she’s a woman - they want a proper doctor. Six years uni, with two degrees + 2yrs postgrad training isn’t enough for some.

MaizieD

varian

Are doctors the latest target of the right wing press?

Looks like it.

Criminal barristers want 25%. Can we all get hysterical about that too...?

It's just another stone in the wall of privatising the NHS. Drive more doctors away and we will all end up with a choice of a very basic NHS with much not available or privatised health care.

You would almost think there was a plan, wouldn't you?

Urmstongran

I suppose you’re right Summerlove. Now is exactly the sweet spot. For doctors and others. They are talking about strikes. Maybe they will. All of them.

Goodness only knows where this country is headed.

I’m sure we’re still headed for the broad sunlit uplands.

Ahem.

25Avalon

How are we going to pay for it? Inflation is rising and this can only increase it. It’s a vicious circle. Not saying nobody deserves more just how can it be done?

How does paying public workers more increase inflation?

I suppose you’re right Summerlove. Now is exactly the sweet spot. For doctors and others. They are talking about strikes. Maybe they will. All of them.

Goodness only knows where this country is headed.

Urmstongran

No, of course not SueDonim and I’m truly grateful for the dedication and expertise of all of our doctors.

Yes, we desperately need more. Why is it so hard to get into medical school? I’ve heard places are restricted and students scramble for them. Demand is higher than supply. I wonder why this is?

It’s the huge pay increase I’m concerned about. I understand they feel differentials have been eroded but is now really the time to press this hard? Inflation is about to rocket (according to some economists).

That’s exactly why it’s the right time

After two years of insanity when else will the public consciousness remember what doctors do?

My daughter was at university for six years because she did the intercalated degree, meaning she specialised in a subject appertaining to medicine for one year and subsequently gained two degrees, a BSc and then later a degree in Medicine. We paid her university fees for the four years they charged, after which on clinical practice there were no fees. We also paid her rent, living expenses, tube train fares, and books etc. She still left university with loans to pay off. She then completed two years as F1 and F2 (Foundation years) and then went to work in a psychiatric hospital for one year to broaden her experience. She then went on to train as a GP for a further three years. She sat examinations every year during these twelve years of training and she worked for the NHS for nine of those years, three of them unpaid. I think she’s earned the right to work anywhere in the world that she wants to work. Of course she completed several years as a fully qualified GP before they left to work in New Zealand.

How are we going to pay for it? Inflation is rising and this can only increase it. It’s a vicious circle. Not saying nobody deserves more just how can it be done?

https://www.gransnet.com/uploads/talk/202206/medium-338813-1fd1a9c5-a4e9-48be-a849-cfeba5a17f20.jpeg https://www.gransnet.com/uploads/talk/202206/medium-715604-5c8b5da1-a505-4596-9e25-8fbaa84d6553.jpeg

On the issue of ‘repaying’ the NHS.

Urmstongran

Most of the training is paid for by the government but some tuition fees - plus rent and living costs - are paid for by the student.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/newsbeat-37550759

Surely it makes good economic sense to ask these highly trained medics to stay here in the UK for ‘x’ number of years as a kind of pay back to the taxpayer? They would know the score when they sign up. It seems fair to me.

Are you saying they should be so grateful for coming out of university circa 50k in debt that they should be happy to work for 30% less than the going rate for the job for say, another three years after the two years post graduation they are already obliged to do? If I was a junior doctor, sorry but I would tell you in no uncertain terms where to stick that idea.

No, of course not SueDonim and I’m truly grateful for the dedication and expertise of all of our doctors.

Yes, we desperately need more. Why is it so hard to get into medical school? I’ve heard places are restricted and students scramble for them. Demand is higher than supply. I wonder why this is?

It’s the huge pay increase I’m concerned about. I understand they feel differentials have been eroded but is now really the time to press this hard? Inflation is about to rocket (according to some economists).

My dd was working on the wards from six weeks into her First Year training! True, they are under supervision but student doctors hold the hospital service together. From Fourth Year they’re doing loads of the routine work, taking blood etc. There’s no traditional student lifestyle for them, they’re working regular hours and studying as well.

The NHS gets its pound of flesh from young doctors, believe you me. In my dd’s case, 22lbs of flesh, as she’s lost 10kilos this past year and gone from a size 10 to a size 6. Is that what people want for the doctors that treat them?

Most of the training is paid for by the government but some tuition fees - plus rent and living costs - are paid for by the student.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/newsbeat-37550759

Surely it makes good economic sense to ask these highly trained medics to stay here in the UK for ‘x’ number of years as a kind of pay back to the taxpayer? They would know the score when they sign up. It seems fair to me.

imaround According to the Government’s website ‘
If you're eligible for an NHS bursary, the NHS pays your standard tuition fees. Your course tuition fees are paid directly to your university. If you're studying a graduate-entry accelerated medical or dental programme, you can get some of your tuition costs paid with an NHS bursary in years 2 to 4 of your programme.’
So, the majority of the course fees are met, but not all. However, given that Medicine is a five year degree, the accumulated debt for living expenses and accommodation results in high debt levels.

Yes, they do two years as house officers immediately post graduation.