Preferred pronoun badges at the Halifax bank.

Glorianny

Well if the Daily Fail says it it must be true. Looking at the Tweets it reproduces I wouldn't want to be associated with half of them. Conservatives, Back Boris-ites and such people don't impress me as being inclusive or interested in diversity.
Why anyone could object so strongly to a word on a badge I don't know. Only repressive regimes police language and wearing your pronoun is a matter of choice for the employee, but it seems some will not permit them to make that choice.

It was on other media, but they are paywall. ?

Well if the Daily Fail says it it must be true. Looking at the Tweets it reproduces I wouldn't want to be associated with half of them. Conservatives, Back Boris-ites and such people don't impress me as being inclusive or interested in diversity.
Why anyone could object so strongly to a word on a badge I don't know. Only repressive regimes police language and wearing your pronoun is a matter of choice for the employee, but it seems some will not permit them to make that choice.

Banks know that they can treat both customers and staff with contempt. They can close branches, make staff redundant, not promote women, pay their executives ginormous bonuses while selling dodgy financial products to people who don't understand what they are buying. Then they can present themselves as virtuous by spending a few quid on badges. They are taking both customers and staff for fools and they know they are.

It seems many customers are leaving because of this.

"Branding expert Martin Townsend said, on LBC, Halifax's policy is a 'Ratner moment' and an 'astonishing' mistake that will be considered one of the biggest PR blunders in recent history."

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10972407/Halifax-suffers-exodus-customers-staff-pronoun-policy.html

www.coventrytelegraph.net/news/uk-world-news/halifax-hit-exodus-customers-over-24374966

VS the word 'female'means biologically female and should not be taken to mean anything else.

Transmen and non-binary people who have been born female, continue to be female for their whole lives - that's why they might choose to take hormone treatment to make them resemble male people.

It is very foolish to claim that 'female' can mean male people since they, of course, remain male for their whole lives.

You’re right, StarDreamer - it’s a different usage.

VS, in MissA’s scenario, asking for a so-called ‘cis’ woman would not solve the problem, as she might be happy to speak to a transman or a female-bodied ‘gender-neutral’ person, neither of whom would identify as ‘cis’, and might be offended to be excluded. She might also prefer a feminist who would understand her fears of talking to a male (however he ‘identified’) and she might not answer to ‘cis’ either.

When ‘woman’ meant ‘adult human female’ she could just have asked to speak to a woman, and be done with it. She might have got someone called Geoff with a shaved head, an elfin goth called Star with their hair in their eyes or a matronly Gladys in a floral dress and cardigan, but she’d know she was speaking to a woman, which is what she asked for.

Complicated, isn’t it?

I always use expressions like "your colleague" in shops and banks because I always think saying "She" or "He told me or showed me" just sounds rude. Nothing to do with the gender, it just sounds very impersonal.

I think that the singular 'they' has pteviously been used instead of "he or she" in the sort of neutral context of having something like,

If someone is off-work sick they must get a sick note from the doctor after seven calendar days off-work.

Or,

The courier arrived while I was out and they left a card.

The singular 'they' used because the sicknote rule applies to both males and females equally, and the courier was not observed.

That usage seems to be a different usage from the use of 'they' as a chosen pronoun for oneself.

MissAdventure

Or, having been assaulted by a male, I asked for a female to speak to, but I got 'them' instead, and was called a bigot.

This is where you could ask for a cis female which would solve the problem but others are trying to make that an offensive term which is a shame because it would obviously make it easier for victims while not offending trans people...

We are not allowed solutions.

Which is why I abandon these threads after a while or...

I identify as trans-parent with the pronouns "who" and "where"

I'm trying to follow the arguments but all I've really learned is that I'm a "silly old woman."

I shall stick to online banking, far safer ?

It really is confusing trying to remember it all.
I know people think it's a deliberate ploy to feign confusion, but I would find it hard to remember what I'm supposed to be calling someone.

The preferred pronouns may not be related to a person's sex but are likely to be related to their gender - and that could be anything eg 'cakegender' 'meowgender'.

VS you know it hasn't been usual to use 'they' for a specific person, as in 'I saw Betty today and they told me about their bunions.'
If it looked like I might have pronoun problems, tho, I would opt for 'they' rather than use wrong-sex pronouns.

Unfortunately not a joke MissA.

Or, having been assaulted by a male, I asked for a female to speak to, but I got 'them' instead, and was called a bigot.

The bage literally states preferred pronouns.

If unsure, use they or them

It really isn't hard, we have always used they or them.

For example

"I asked them to use my preferred pronouns and they refused for absolutely no logical reason"

Yes Stardreamer it’s very amusing and confusing , If neopronouns disrupt and subvert the idea of making no assumption of gender through pronouns Then we cannot trust in what the badge states and may fall into misgendering Elizabeth. Because Elizabeth could also be Agender, beyond gender, or both genders at the same time.

Stormystar wrote It’s all become clear now if I see a man in the Halifax with a badge stating Elizabeth, she/ her etc. I must NOT assume it’s linked to his gender and call him her.

I am notunderstanding whether the call him her bit must or must not be done, as in whether the sentence means

So, is it

>? I must NOT assume it’s linked to his gender and must call him her.

or

>? I must NOT assume it’s linked to his gender and NOT call him her.

please?

If the second one, why is, er, the human, wearing a badge with the name Elizabeth on it? Is he declaring his love for Elizabeth?

It's just become clear to me to watch where I bank.

I’ve just discovered I’m so out of time with the whole pronoun issue, there is a meta narrative I need to consider, because my grandchildren just told me about Neopronouns. Which are very explicitly not linked to gender, rather they disrupt the idea that you can make gender assumptions about a person based on their pronouns. It’s all become clear now if I see a man in the Halifax with a badge stating Elizabeth, she/ her etc. I must NOT assume it’s linked to his gender and call him her.

Complete non issue.

This is the trouble - badges like this normalise so-called 'gender' identification, when by no means everyone believes that gender exists in this way.

Making the badges optional makes it look as though Halifax is being reasonable; but in reality it means that those who opt out are seen to be making a statement, when they shouldn't have to. Being gender critical is a protected belief, and people should not be forced into making declarations about something they don't believe in, any more than transpeople should have to shout about that, unless they want to do so, in which case a simple change of name would usually do it.

As I said upthread, if they are really concerned about being inclusive they could close the gap between women and men's pay.

Yes, that is my worry about accepting and using female pronouns for men who have self identified as such.
It then makes it a problem to say that it is only ok in particular settings.

MissA general acceptance of wrong-sex pronouns in some situations makes it seem normal in others eg courts of law and the places you mention .

Trans people, in my opinion, should own their trans reality, present themselves however they like but not claim to be the opposite sex, especially in situations where sex is important.

I've no objection to calling people their preferred pronouns in the Halifax; it's when they are working in rape crisis centres, and other women only spaces that I have a problem.

FarNorth your right, I misquoted Nelson Mandela, it’s a quote often wrongly attributed to him.