Preferred pronoun badges at the Halifax bank.

Doodledog wrote Do you mean people with unisex names?

Not quite. I was thinking of two women I have known, each of whom liked to be known as Sam, I know for certain that at least one was definitely Samantha. I feel that Samantha is such a beautiful name, but she was Sam, so I addressed her as Sam. Alas.

But is it Sam-antha or Sa-mantha?

I also met a woman known as Steve.

FarNorth

^And the person he was answering was called Warren.^
Why is that relevant volver?

You suggested that Andy M was responding to someone asking about closing their account. That wasn't so.

Why do you assume that Andy and Warren should both be called 'he' although they haven't told you?

Well pardon me for not being perfect.

hollysteers

“If anyone referred to me as a lady, I’d be having a word with them”
Touchy aren’t we? Ridiculous ?

I'll be touchy if I like, you keep calling people lady if you like and they can all have a wry smile at the silly old woman who thinks she's being polite.

StarDreamer

What about Sam and Steve?

Do you mean people with unisex names?

What about them? As with those who have very clearly gendered names (eg Gemma) you can call them Sam or Steve whether addressing them directly or referring to them in conversation with others. In 99% of cases it's not an issue, as it's perfectly obvious whether they are male or female in any case.

If not, and if they are not present during a conversation with others which refers to them, why does it matter if you get their pronoun 'wrong'? They will never know. If that possibility still troubles you, you could use the asexual/plural 'they', but then you risk bothering people like LizzieDrip.

Whatever you do is going to irritate someone.

Oh for heavens sakes!!!

What about Sam and Steve?

“If anyone referred to me as a lady, I’d be having a word with them”
Touchy aren’t we? Ridiculous ?

You mean ....... some people can actually get into a bank and see a real person ??????????

And the person he was answering was called Warren.
Why is that relevant volver?

You suggested that Andy M was responding to someone asking about closing their account. That wasn't so.

Why do you assume that Andy and Warren should both be called 'he' although they haven't told you?

Sussexborn

The only female Robyn I knew spelt it with a Y. She was the third daughter and a disappointment to both parents.

That’s a much bigger issue to my mind.

I still remember the little girl near us who was named Robyn/Robin, never did know which.
She also had extremely short hair and introduced herself to me and little dd by saying, ‘My name’s Robin and I’m NOT a boy!’
I could only think ‘disappointed parent’ and really did feel for her.

FarNorth

Here's a screenshot of Andy M making that suggestion.

And the person he was answering was called Warren. Not sure if he even has a Halifax account. I thought the response what quite moderate after someone accused the Halifax of pathetic virtue signalling and trying to alienate people.

The Mail, GBNews and so on seem to disagree though.

FarNorth

As a language pedant LizzieDrip, it doesn't bother you to use 'she' for someone who is clearly male or 'he' for someone clearly female?

There is a lot more to this subject than just being kind or polite.

fairplayforwomen.com/pronouns/

^"Incongruent pronouns also make your brain work much harder; not just when you are using them, but when you are receiving them as information. You are working constantly to keep that story straight in your head. Male or female? Which one, again? Concentrate harder. Ignore your instincts, ignore your reaction."^

There are some instincts that it is absolutely right to ignore. These are the ones that make us fearful of people who are different in some way, or make us fear all change. They are behind most racism and most sexism.
So actually being asked to question those instincts is probably good for us and good for society.
Relying on instant reactions is not a good thing. Who hasn't sometimes jumped to the wrong conclusion?
So if chosen pronouns does make us think more that is probably a good thing. It also means that when someone has a name that isn't easily identifiable, or which can be used for either gender (like Sam) the chosen pronoun is known. Really why would anyone object to something which simply clarifies things?

JaneJudge

some one I have to correspond with online who is a man, known as a man, underwrite he/him under his sign off. I actually fully admit, I am boggled by it and I completely ignorant as to why someone would do that
Jane
she/her
???

It will probably be because his employer is complying with the Stonewall rules that allow people to pay them large sums of money to be 'awarded' Diversity Champion status if they 'persuade' employees to declare their pronouns on email signatures, even though this is a massive invasion of privacy for some people, and a pain in the neck for many others.

FarNorth as I stated, the use of ‘they’ is a grammatical issue. However, I also recognise that language is a dynamic, evolving entity and this is an example of language evolution. Of course I would use ‘they’ if it was a person’s preferred pronoun. Of course I can ‘cope’ with that! The use of respectful language is more important than my pedantry. I was merely expressing a perspective. Language, like everything in life, moves on and we should move on with it. I didn’t like ‘Google’ being used as a verb when it first started but, actually, it works so I now happily google along with the best of ‘em

LizzieDrip

It doesn’t bother me at all that people express their preferred pronoun. I don’t understand why anyone would get worked up about it on name badges etc - it’s not hurting anyone. It’s actually quite commonplace on many professional emails now. As a bit of a ‘language pedant’ I prefer the use of someone’s preferred pronoun rather than the more generic use of ‘they’. When used in place of a singular name ‘they’ is grammatically incorrect which makes my hair stand on end. I know, I know… It’s how language evolves I suppose. But, for me, preferred pronoun all the way

So if someone 'identifies' as non-binary and uses the pronoun 'they', how does that fit with your view of grammar versus preference?

And how does the situation where increasing numbers of workplaces are insisting on employees giving pronouns in email signatures suggest that 'it's not hurting anyone'? Apart from there being no logical link between one and the other, it does hurt people who don't believe in 'gender' and don't want to use them, but don't have the power to refuse. As email sigs are, to all intents and purposes, public, this insistence also 'outs' people who may not want to make their so-called 'gender preferences' known outside of the workplace . Halifax are not, apparently, insisting on staff using pronouns, but a number of employers do (on Stonewall's insistence) and it is far from a hurt-free situation for many people.

some one I have to correspond with online who is a man, known as a man, underwrite he/him under his sign off. I actually fully admit, I am boggled by it and I completely ignorant as to why someone would do that
Jane
she/her
???

But you can't cope with using a respectful 'they', Lizzie, even if a person had that on their badge, or they asked you to?

Here's a screenshot of Andy M making that suggestion.

As a language pedant LizzieDrip, it doesn't bother you to use 'she' for someone who is clearly male or 'he' for someone clearly female

No, it doesn’t bother me because I’m using language in a way that is respectful to the person. And in some instances it’s not clearly obvious whether the person is male or female.

FarNorth

Andy M, of the Halifax, suggested that people should move their accounts.
Perhaps if Andy had kindly explained instead, as some on here are doing on Halifax's behalf, people wouldn't have decided to leave.

Andy M of Halifax told a particular person they were free to move their account which is the same message everybody gets if they ask to move their account. It wasn't an aggressive outburst, just info for the particular person who was asking. But the message has been selectively quoted by people who are mortally offended by Halifax's stance in this.

As a language pedant LizzieDrip, it doesn't bother you to use 'she' for someone who is clearly male or 'he' for someone clearly female?

There is a lot more to this subject than just being kind or polite.

fairplayforwomen.com/pronouns/

"Incongruent pronouns also make your brain work much harder; not just when you are using them, but when you are receiving them as information. You are working constantly to keep that story straight in your head. Male or female? Which one, again? Concentrate harder. Ignore your instincts, ignore your reaction."

'This word 'woke' seems to me to be a substitute for saying being kind and respecting other people........but that would explain why the right wing are so opposed to it

???Franbern

It’s a Bank not a mouthpiece for Marxist ideology

Strange - don’t remember reading Marx’s views on preferred pronouns.

Andy M, of the Halifax, suggested that people should move their accounts.
Perhaps if Andy had kindly explained instead, as some on here are doing on Halifax's behalf, people wouldn't have decided to leave.

It doesn’t bother me at all that people express their preferred pronoun. I don’t understand why anyone would get worked up about it on name badges etc - it’s not hurting anyone. It’s actually quite commonplace on many professional emails now. As a bit of a ‘language pedant’ I prefer the use of someone’s preferred pronoun rather than the more generic use of ‘they’. When used in place of a singular name ‘they’ is grammatically incorrect which makes my hair stand on end. I know, I know… It’s how language evolves I suppose. But, for me, preferred pronoun all the way