What, if anything, do Conservatives now believe in?

Kandinsky

So what are your thoughts on Macron?

Okay. I’ll answer my own question as nobody else seems able to.

I’m glad Macron & other EU leaders have been exposed as greedy shysters.
I wonder what other dodgy dealings they’re involved in?

There. Question answered.
Have a nice day ?

What does this have to do with Conservative beliefs? At the moment we are engaged with something much more serious - the fate of our own country.

It seems that the main reason for choosing the new leader is whether he/she was in favour of Brexit. What that has to do with anything now that Brexit has happened is neither here nor there. I think that everybody (even though some may not like it) accepts that we cannot rejoin the EU.

Second reason - cut taxes - for big business according to Hunt.

No mention of funding for the NHS, schools, social care.

It's funny isn't it? The assertions made in the past have been that the Conservatives were a safe pair of hands compared with Labour. But successive PMs seem to have been determined to prove what a falsehood that is, building up to the climax of Boris. Now the candidates for leadership seem to be varying degrees of inadequate and policies a thing of the past. You couldn't make it up!

They seem to have run out of ideas, hence the endless repetition of "tax cuts" with no ideas about how to pay for them and what effect that would have on our underfunded public services. We need a general election sooner rather than later, IMO.

I would like to hear from some Tory voters (and if possible, party members) because, of course, all the current rhetoric from the candidates is designed to appeal to them.

Once, you’d have had to look to the very right of the party to find approval for things like the Rwanda deportation policy, being content to see children live in poverty to cut taxes for the richest, privatising health care, and unchecked capitalism. Now it appears the parliamentary party believe the majority of ordinary Tory members support these positions.

It may be so, but then I wonder how such a narrow and divisive platform will appeal to the wider electorate.

One of my sons (a remainer) and one of my daughters-in-law (a leave voter) are - or rather, have been - Tory voters, but are unlikely to be so if the party doesn’t change direction.

Anyone seen Professor Richard Murphy’s explanation as to how the economy operates?

He uses a simple formula-

GDP (a country’s income) = consumption (what we spend as private individuals) + government consumption ( what the government spends on public services etc + investment into the economy ( capital input leads to economic growth and higher employment) + or - net exports ( export-import).

So what Murphy is arguing is that it is making no sense if we want to grow our economy to reduce government spending (consumption).

Government spending supplies us with all the services we need like health, education, defence, etc. The money does not disappear down a black hole as the Tories like to suggest, but these services add to our income.

So the Tory candidates who are arguing for less government spending seem muddled. If they do so, the first thing that they will do is to reduce our GDP.

What does a 20% cut in public services mean? Well, first it will mean, fewer, police, fewer teachers, nurses, doctors and a smaller NHS.

So not only will we lose what these people add to the economy, we will lose what they spend as well. Even if they find another job, it tends to be less well paid because they are trained to do the job they are doing and not others, so they will consume less.

That is a bit from his article. If anyone can do a link I’d be grateful

BlueBelle

In answer to your title ….feathering their own nests

Absolutely true.
Note how many of all these candidates are calling for a return to the low tax conservatism. Yep, not low tax for the workers, but low tax for corporations. Ensure the bosses can make even more profit.
Of course a low tax economy ALSO means low social services = even less money for NHS, Education, Police, etc etc.

Whitewavemark2

Anyone seen Professor Richard Murphy’s explanation as to how the economy operates?

He uses a simple formula-

GDP (a country’s income) = consumption (what we spend as private individuals) + government consumption ( what the government spends on public services etc + investment into the economy ( capital input leads to economic growth and higher employment) + or - net exports ( export-import).

So what Murphy is arguing is that it is making no sense if we want to grow our economy to reduce government spending (consumption).

Government spending supplies us with all the services we need like health, education, defence, etc. The money does not disappear down a black hole as the Tories like to suggest, but these services add to our income.

So the Tory candidates who are arguing for less government spending seem muddled. If they do so, the first thing that they will do is to reduce our GDP.

What does a 20% cut in public services mean? Well, first it will mean, fewer, police, fewer teachers, nurses, doctors and a smaller NHS.

So not only will we lose what these people add to the economy, we will lose what they spend as well. Even if they find another job, it tends to be less well paid because they are trained to do the job they are doing and not others, so they will consume less.

That is a bit from his article. If anyone can do a link I’d be grateful

I'd be grateful too. I'm trying (failing) to properly understand macro economics. Every little helps...

Here's a link to his entry in Tax Research UK

www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/richard-murphy/

It gives an idea into his way of thinking

Keeping their soft jobs. Just like Johnson is hanging on.

Dinahmo

Here's a link to his entry in Tax Research UK

www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/richard-murphy/

It gives an idea into his way of thinking

Thank you for that.

If you are whizzy at links can you do the one my post relates to please?

It was posted on 11/07/22 and can be found on twitter and probably elsewhere.

Thank you in advance.

It’s title is “government is not the black hole Tories seem to think”

I think many conservative voters still believe in a small state/low tax government. I believe conservative MPs are now desperately trying to focus on the next election and the policies that will secure a win. I also find it unbelievable that nobody seems to think NHS, child poverty, social services etc deserve a mentioning. We've heard the mantra ”delivering on the people's priorities” for a long time now. I spent 55 minutes (!) on the phone the other day just trying to get through to my local GP surgery. This seems to be quite normal these days. So obviously not a priority.

Kandinsky: ^"I’m glad Macron & other EU leaders have been exposed as greedy shysters.
I wonder what other dodgy dealings they’re involved in?"^

What a relief to know that our own government will never be exposed as greedy shysters and have never been involved in dodgy dealings.
I think you rather Uberdid it with your Macron/Uber comment.

No mention of levelling up or any other undeliverable slogans invented by Johnson’s advisers.

Ok, so would any of the once vociferous Johnson supporters like to tell us what they would like to see in the next candidate for PM? What will make them vote for that candidate over the others? Do we have any Tory party members on here who will be voting on this crucial decision which will affect all of us?

Like most of the posters so far, I am concerned that all of them are pushing tax cuts, with no mention of help for the NHS, Cost of Living Crisis, forthcoming fuel problems, etc. To be honest, anyone who thinks they are the perfect candidate, by definition isn't.

This aside, and apart from Kadinsky trying to direct us to Macron (why?), would any of you like to tell us what will make you choose/not choose one of them? I am sincerely interested.

I think this is it WWM

Government is not an economic black hole as Tories seem to think: it’s essential to our national well-being

I had missed that this morning Whitewave so very many thanks. This is such an interesting point.

In that case let’s be clear, what the government does in supplying us with the services we all need adds to our income. Whether it is education, health, social care, criminal justice, and so much else, including defence, government is not a black hole into which we pour money.

Here's your link, Wwmk2

www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2022/07/11/government-is-not-an-economic-black-hole-as-tories-seem-to-think-its-essential-to-our-national-well-being/

Franbern says:

Of course a low tax economy ALSO means low social services = even less money for NHS, Education, Police, etc etc.

That is just not true, because taxation doesn't fund spending. I keep on banging this drum because if people were to actually take this on board it would give them a completely different perspective on how a national economy works and a better way to judge party's economic policies and spending plans.

This is not a conclusion reached by nutters. It is a conclusion reached by economists who have studied the flows of money in a national economy and taken them to their logical conclusion.

This video is US centred, but the process it describes applies to any country which uses its own 'sovereign' currency.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=bHQCjFebIf8

This aside, and apart from Kadinsky trying to direct us to Macron (why?), would any of you like to tell us what will make you choose/not choose one of them? I am sincerely interested.

I think we need a separate thread for this, HousePlantQueen , to explicitly ask tory voters what they believe in that leads them to vote tory.

I think we need a separate thread for this, HousePlantQueen , to explicitly ask tory voters what they believe in that leads them to vote tory.

Just started, good idea.

At the moment, The Candidates are not talking to us but to the members of the Tory party who are always concerned about taxation and what they perceive is a move to the left. They are trying to become leader of a party with very traditioal beliefs of the small state. The public have no say atm; wait for a GE where I suspect they will lose out to the Liberal Party. The LDs should beef up their act in readiness.

Whitewavemark2

I have been reading the promises being put out by the hopeful candidates.

They don’t seem to be saying anything about the crises in the cost of living or the NHS.

All they are talking about is cutting tax. The trouble with cutting tax is that it is inflationary, and with the current rate at 10% this doesn’t seem terribly sensible.

I also can’t see how it would help resolve the growing inequality gap.

The only tax cutting promises I've seen have been cutting business taxes.

A fat lot of good that's going to do when people don't have the money to spend in those businesses.

I think you are right Boz. I also think some poll that they have done highlighted "tax-cuts". However, I think they may be behind the times with the traditional Tory member. I assume they are out now, in very hot rooms with groups of members, trying to find out what they are saying.

It will be interesting to hear.

I have been watching and listening to the candidates, and feeling very puzzled as to why they are not addressing the issues that are a priority in peoples minds. Like the cost of living, NHS, social care etc. Tax comes way down the list.

Then the penny dropped.

They aren’t addressing the voter, they are talking to a miniscule group of white, wealthy southern men who will have the vote on our next prime minister.

Our democracy is truly f….d

Whitewave to my mind a very true statement. we really need a GE and make clean sweep