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Is the LP changing its stance on 'gender'?

(394 Posts)
Doodledog Sun 17-Jul-22 23:17:30

I've thought for a while that the worm was turning when it comes to 'trans' issues. It is finally getting through that support for self-id is misogynistic and that gender-criticism is not the same as transphobia. Slowly but surely, court cases and policy changes are moving towards (to my mind) a more sensible approach.

Ironically for many women I know who are broadly left-wing, it has been the Tories who have caught on to this first, and it's interesting that at least two of the leadership candidates have mentioned 'gender politics' or 'culture wars' in their campaigns. Meanwhile, the LP has been woefully behind the times, with idiotic comments about men having cervixes and how transpeople are the most marginalised group in society.

But now it appears that they realise that they are behind the curve, and that many feminists and female-supporting men will struggle to vote for them - or maybe it's that they realise that it's becoming more acceptable to speak against the tyranny, and they are now saying what they really think. Either way (and I speak as a member of the LP) it's not a good look, but it's a better look than the craven adherence to Stonewall's No Debate mantra that we've seen so far.

This is from James Kirkup in the Spectator and for those who don't like links the text is at the bottom of the post.

It's probably obvious that I would be delighted if the LP did a U -turn on this. I'm not delighted at the display of what I see as cowardice that has held sway for so long, but it will be such a relief to be able to vote for the party whose policies are closer to my heart than any of the others without fearing that by doing so I am betraying my daughter and future generations of women.

What do others think? Am I being naively optimistic? Will the Lib Dems, the Greens and SNP rethink their ideas ahead of the GE? Will any of it make a difference to how you vote, or do you think that it isn't important compared to other issues?

Here is the text of the Spectator article:

Amid the noise of the Tory leadership fight, some significant comments in the papers could be missed today. Here’s the quote, from a Sunday Times interview with an intelligent, ambitious female politician in her forties:

“Biology is important. A woman is somebody with a biology that is different from a man’s biology. We’re seeing in sport sensible decisions being made about who cannot compete in certain cases."

Could it reflect a new approach to trans issues from the Labour leadership?
She says she would ‘have a problem’ with someone with male genitals identifying as a woman and using a female changing space, and isn’t entirely sold on the use of gender pronouns. ‘You don’t have to say to someone, “Shall I call you he or she?” – it’s pretty obvious. But there are also difficult cases of somebody who is born as one sex and defines as another. I wouldn’t want to deny their right to define themselves in the way they want to be defined.’

Even by the standards of recent days, that’s pretty punchy. In particular that line on rejecting pronouns because ‘it’s pretty obvious’ strikes me as potentially controversial. I certainly know people and groups who would find that offensive. No candidate in the Tory race has thus been so outspoken on sex and gender. So are those quotes above yet another Conservative attempt to stoke a culture war?

That phrase has been used a lot recently, generally with disapproval and often by people keen to dismiss the concerns that some women raise about the impact of trans-rights policies on their rights and standing. And framing women’s concerns as the product of right-wing, social conservative politics makes them easier for lots of people in politics and the media to ignore and denigrate those concerns as marginal and ideological.

Of course, there’s nothing illegitimate about being either right-wing or socially conservative (I’m neither) but in much of our public discourse, those things are routinely denigrated, put beyond the pale of acceptability. So it’s significant that the author of those comments above cannot possibly be described as a right-winger or a social conservative. She is Rachel Reeves, Labour’s shadow chancellor.

The fact that Reeves, as smart and decent a politician as you’ll find in the Commons today, has said these things could have many implications. Could it strain Labour unity? It’s pretty hard to reconcile those comments with the position of some of her frontbench colleagues.

Could it reflect a new approach to trans issues from the Labour leadership? Reeves is today taking a much clearer line than Sir Keir Starmer, who has been more equivocal. I don’t know the answer to those questions, which can wait for another day.

My point here today is simpler. Rachel Reeves, the Labour shadow chancellor, has backed banning transwomen from women’s sport and excluding them from women’s spaces. And she’s rejected using gendered pronouns. By doing so, Reeves has provided yet more evidence to prove that concerns about trans rights policies and their impact on women’s rights are not right-wing or conservative. Nor are they marginal or ideological.
James Kirkup

FarNorth Sun 31-Jul-22 20:42:09

[A]n important letter in today’s Observer from Labour MPs & peers expressing dismay at [Labour] party blocking Labour Women's Declaration from having a stand at this year’s conference.

mobile.twitter.com/soniasodha/status/1553654729011601411

FarNorth Sun 31-Jul-22 20:36:46

Comments can be made elsewhere than twitter, I suppose you know, Glorianny.
So you haven't seen any comments and have no idea whether that statement is correct or not.
Thanks for posting.

Glorianny Sun 31-Jul-22 14:43:44

FarNorth

Glorianny

Mmm the same Frances Barber who described the SNP as the same as the Third Reich. Not someone with balanced or considered views really.

Glorianny that tweet isn't a view, it's a statement that she hasn't seen any comment from the LP on Allison Bailey.
Have you seen any comment from any of them?

Be a ibt hard as I don't tweet.

FarNorth Sun 31-Jul-22 14:10:03

Glorianny

Mmm the same Frances Barber who described the SNP as the same as the Third Reich. Not someone with balanced or considered views really.

Glorianny that tweet isn't a view, it's a statement that she hasn't seen any comment from the LP on Allison Bailey.
Have you seen any comment from any of them?

Galaxy Sun 31-Jul-22 14:02:11

Indeed if someone says something we disagree with we should never listen to anything else they say. That's working really well.

Glorianny Sun 31-Jul-22 13:42:54

Mmm the same Frances Barber who described the SNP as the same as the Third Reich. Not someone with balanced or considered views really.

FarNorth Sat 30-Jul-22 19:43:38

Here are a couple of tweets about the Labour Party - not too cheerful .

Chewbacca Thu 28-Jul-22 17:19:12

Cheers FarNorth

FarNorth Thu 28-Jul-22 17:16:05

I started a thread about the Tavistock

www.gransnet.com/forums/news_and_politics/1313594-Tavistock-Gender-Clinic-to-close-it-failed-vulnerable-under-18s

Chewbacca Thu 28-Jul-22 17:02:04

Tavistock’s Gender Identity Development Service (GIDS) clinic has been accused of rushing children into life-altering treatment on puberty blockers.

T^he paediatrician Dr Hilary Cass, who is leading a review of the service, issued a series of recommendations today for a radical overhaul of how the NHS treats young people who are questioning their gender identity.^

She found that the Tavistock clinic was “not a safe or viable long-term option” and that other mental health issues were “overshadowed” when gender was raised by children referred to the clinic.
Amid concerns that the clinic fails to take into account wider health problems before putting children on puberty blockers, Cass added: “Staff should maintain a broad clinical perspective in order to embed the care of children and young people with gender uncertainty within a broader child and adolescent health context.”

She found there was “a lack of agreement, and in many instances a lack of open discussion” about whether unhappiness with gender in adolescence was permanent or temporary.

Chewbacca Thu 28-Jul-22 16:53:26

The Cass report is to be released, in full, next Thursday. Should make interesting reading.

Mollygo Thu 28-Jul-22 15:10:39

Excellent news. And even better if the proper holistic treatment is put into place.

Galaxy Thu 28-Jul-22 14:10:29

Sonia Appelby was the safeguarding lead who won an employment tribunal against them.

FarNorth Thu 28-Jul-22 14:06:58

That needs a thread of its own.

Doodledog Thu 28-Jul-22 14:06:50

Wow!

I am working, so don't have the radio or TV on, and had missed that.

The times they are a changin' grin.

Iam64 Thu 28-Jul-22 14:05:50

It did Chewbacca -those closely involved knew it would be closed

FarNorth Thu 28-Jul-22 14:05:47

Wow!
I hope the new clinics do treat children holistically.

Chewbacca Thu 28-Jul-22 14:04:44

The Case report must have exposed some pretty damning findings for them to just close it down. Perhaps now, children with gender dysphoria will receive proper holistic care, mental health support and rigorous data collection instead of being channelled through an experiment factory.

being channelled through an experiment factory.

Iam64 Thu 28-Jul-22 13:58:10

Well done Dr Hilary Cass and the whistleblowers. Here’s hoping the tide is turning

Rosie51 Thu 28-Jul-22 13:56:02

Galaxy

Thanks chewbacca for writing that out. The whistleblowers and the women who have been raising concerns should be thanked for their persistence.

They certainly should! It took a lot of guts to swim against the tide and take the flack they did.

Galaxy Thu 28-Jul-22 13:50:53

Thanks chewbacca for writing that out. The whistleblowers and the women who have been raising concerns should be thanked for their persistence.

Chewbacca Thu 28-Jul-22 13:47:44

You beat me to it Galaxy I was just about to post the same thing.

Tavistock and Portman NHS Foundation Trust has been told to close its gender clinic by spring after it was criticised in an independent review.

New regional centres will be set up to "ensure the holistic needs" of children are fully considered, the NHS said.

The independent review, led by Dr Hilary Cass, said the Tavistock clinic needed to be transformed.

Galaxy Thu 28-Jul-22 13:44:44

Have you seen the news. The tavistock is to be closed down. BBC news.

Mollygo Thu 28-Jul-22 11:16:22

Thanks for all today’s posts. DD, FN, GDH, Iam64 and any I’ve missed. That list is amazing and let’s hope there are more red lines.

Doodledog Thu 28-Jul-22 09:28:56

FarNorth

Wow DD it's quite something, looking down that list.
Just seeing the figure of 850 doesn't give a mental picture of how many that really is, especially as many are very big organisations.

Thanks for the article grannydarkhair.

I know! I was quite shocked when I saw it, and as you say, when you think of the number of employees in councils, educational establishments and other large employers, it is clear that the reach of Stonewall has been vast.

It will be interesting to see how many more red lines will appear on the list over the coming weeks though, as more and more organisations leave. What is the point of belonging to (and paying money to) an organisation that has no responsibility to give you good advice, and whose 'expertise' on the law has been roundly called into question?