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Is the LP changing its stance on 'gender'?

(394 Posts)
Doodledog Sun 17-Jul-22 23:17:30

I've thought for a while that the worm was turning when it comes to 'trans' issues. It is finally getting through that support for self-id is misogynistic and that gender-criticism is not the same as transphobia. Slowly but surely, court cases and policy changes are moving towards (to my mind) a more sensible approach.

Ironically for many women I know who are broadly left-wing, it has been the Tories who have caught on to this first, and it's interesting that at least two of the leadership candidates have mentioned 'gender politics' or 'culture wars' in their campaigns. Meanwhile, the LP has been woefully behind the times, with idiotic comments about men having cervixes and how transpeople are the most marginalised group in society.

But now it appears that they realise that they are behind the curve, and that many feminists and female-supporting men will struggle to vote for them - or maybe it's that they realise that it's becoming more acceptable to speak against the tyranny, and they are now saying what they really think. Either way (and I speak as a member of the LP) it's not a good look, but it's a better look than the craven adherence to Stonewall's No Debate mantra that we've seen so far.

This is from James Kirkup in the Spectator and for those who don't like links the text is at the bottom of the post.

It's probably obvious that I would be delighted if the LP did a U -turn on this. I'm not delighted at the display of what I see as cowardice that has held sway for so long, but it will be such a relief to be able to vote for the party whose policies are closer to my heart than any of the others without fearing that by doing so I am betraying my daughter and future generations of women.

What do others think? Am I being naively optimistic? Will the Lib Dems, the Greens and SNP rethink their ideas ahead of the GE? Will any of it make a difference to how you vote, or do you think that it isn't important compared to other issues?

Here is the text of the Spectator article:

Amid the noise of the Tory leadership fight, some significant comments in the papers could be missed today. Here’s the quote, from a Sunday Times interview with an intelligent, ambitious female politician in her forties:

“Biology is important. A woman is somebody with a biology that is different from a man’s biology. We’re seeing in sport sensible decisions being made about who cannot compete in certain cases."

Could it reflect a new approach to trans issues from the Labour leadership?
She says she would ‘have a problem’ with someone with male genitals identifying as a woman and using a female changing space, and isn’t entirely sold on the use of gender pronouns. ‘You don’t have to say to someone, “Shall I call you he or she?” – it’s pretty obvious. But there are also difficult cases of somebody who is born as one sex and defines as another. I wouldn’t want to deny their right to define themselves in the way they want to be defined.’

Even by the standards of recent days, that’s pretty punchy. In particular that line on rejecting pronouns because ‘it’s pretty obvious’ strikes me as potentially controversial. I certainly know people and groups who would find that offensive. No candidate in the Tory race has thus been so outspoken on sex and gender. So are those quotes above yet another Conservative attempt to stoke a culture war?

That phrase has been used a lot recently, generally with disapproval and often by people keen to dismiss the concerns that some women raise about the impact of trans-rights policies on their rights and standing. And framing women’s concerns as the product of right-wing, social conservative politics makes them easier for lots of people in politics and the media to ignore and denigrate those concerns as marginal and ideological.

Of course, there’s nothing illegitimate about being either right-wing or socially conservative (I’m neither) but in much of our public discourse, those things are routinely denigrated, put beyond the pale of acceptability. So it’s significant that the author of those comments above cannot possibly be described as a right-winger or a social conservative. She is Rachel Reeves, Labour’s shadow chancellor.

The fact that Reeves, as smart and decent a politician as you’ll find in the Commons today, has said these things could have many implications. Could it strain Labour unity? It’s pretty hard to reconcile those comments with the position of some of her frontbench colleagues.

Could it reflect a new approach to trans issues from the Labour leadership? Reeves is today taking a much clearer line than Sir Keir Starmer, who has been more equivocal. I don’t know the answer to those questions, which can wait for another day.

My point here today is simpler. Rachel Reeves, the Labour shadow chancellor, has backed banning transwomen from women’s sport and excluding them from women’s spaces. And she’s rejected using gendered pronouns. By doing so, Reeves has provided yet more evidence to prove that concerns about trans rights policies and their impact on women’s rights are not right-wing or conservative. Nor are they marginal or ideological.
James Kirkup

FarNorth Tue 19-Jul-22 16:36:47

It was DaisyAnne who brought 'extremes' into this thread.

DaisyAnne Tue 19-Jul-22 16:36:40

Galaxy

So why can the earth not be flat after all perhaps the science will change again.

"The mind that opens up to a new idea never returns to its original size."

- Albert Einstein.

Doodledog Tue 19-Jul-22 16:33:43

Yes, that would have been (and still would be) far more edifying.

DaisyAnne Tue 19-Jul-22 16:33:24

Doodledog

*The LP is questioning and testing all the input they are getting, as far as I can see and based on my bias to want that to be the case. I am not an LP member or supporter. However, I would have thought that by nature and by learning, that is what Starmer would do.*
Cross-posted - apologies.

I would have thought so too, and as a LP member and supporter, I also want it to be the case, which is why I am disappointed and confused. I believe that Starmer knows perfectly well that only women have cervixes, for instance, but is afraid to say so as that risks annoying a vociferous and influential minority. But we are going round in circles and squaring none of them, as there is nothing concrete in your posts with which to agree or disagree.

Back to your insistence on belief Doodledog, so nothing more for me to say.

Galaxy Tue 19-Jul-22 16:31:56

The labour party arent weighing up the evidence they could have done that 10 years ago when women tried talking to them about it. They are on the whole looking ridiculous on this issue and I say that as a LP member. I would actually rather they avoided this conversation altogether as it tends to cause damage to any party or politician who tries, waves to Penny Mordaunt, Jo Swinson etc.

Doodledog Tue 19-Jul-22 16:29:40

Glorianny

Smileless2012

We realise that people are complicated, we take them as they come and also treat others with respect too, so why are we extremists?

I didn't use the word extremist Smileless2012 so I don't know best ask the originator- Doodledog I think. I just think you're all sadly obsessed and not living in the real world.

Sorry to disappoint you, but it was DaisyAnne in her post of Mon 18-Jul-22 23:48:56.

The 'not in the real world trope is not an argument, is it? It is nonsensical, unless you have evidence of some other world where we could be living - the flat one, maybe?

(I'll leave the 'obsessed' comment hanging. I know it won't have gone unnoticed grin ).

Doodledog Tue 19-Jul-22 16:25:31

Are you seriously equating scientific research, as explained by Sir Robert Winston in FarNorth's link, with the beliefs of the Flat Earth Society? Yes, scientific knowledge evolves and is added to over time, but knowledge of gametes and their role in reproduction is accepted as fact.

Even if those decades of research turned out to all have a terrible mistake however, it is a fact that women are struggling to find places where they can undress and feel safe away from male-bodied individuals who have functional penises that can be used for rape, and who have male hormones that are responsible for sexual desire and aggression, and this is the area (and others like it) that we need politicians to address - the scientists will deal with the rest.

In the absence of any evidence to the contrary, it makes sense to me that they work within the tried and tested parameters of accepted knowledge that have stood the test of time.

Smileless2012 Tue 19-Jul-22 16:25:20

It was never scientifically proved that the earth was flat, but was scientifically proved that the earth is a sphere. Scientific knowledge shows what a man is and what a woman is. Can you provide a link to any scientific research that says differently DaisyAnne?

Galaxy Tue 19-Jul-22 16:22:29

So why can the earth not be flat after all perhaps the science will change again.

Glorianny Tue 19-Jul-22 16:20:56

Smileless2012

We realise that people are complicated, we take them as they come and also treat others with respect too, so why are we extremists?

I didn't use the word extremist Smileless2012 so I don't know best ask the originator- Doodledog I think. I just think you're all sadly obsessed and not living in the real world.

DaisyAnne Tue 19-Jul-22 16:14:15

Smileless2012

The fact that a woman is an adult female and a man is an adult male is indisputable and immutable. As is the fact that a man cannot become a woman and a woman cannot become a man.

No amount of debate or discussion is ever going to change that

Obviously that is what you believe. Just in the way people believed the earth was flat - as the then scientific knowledge told them. I am sure they would have told you that their belief was indisputable and immutable too.

Smileless2012 Tue 19-Jul-22 16:13:52

We realise that people are complicated, we take them as they come and also treat others with respect too, so why are we extremists?

Doodledog Tue 19-Jul-22 16:11:51

That's how I see my own view, too. But yet we disagree. Funny that wink.

Glorianny Tue 19-Jul-22 16:09:48

Doodledog

But you're in the other 'extremist camp' t Glorianna. Sauce for the goose and all that.

DaisyAnne, what do you see as evidence that the LP is open minded? Again, I would very much like to believe that, and if I've missed anything (or have screened it out because of my extremism wink) I'd be genuinely interested to know what it is.

I'm not in any "extremist" camp. I simply realise people are complicated, take them as they come and treat others with respect. It isn't complicated. It isn't extremist.

Doodledog Tue 19-Jul-22 16:06:58

The LP is questioning and testing all the input they are getting, as far as I can see and based on my bias to want that to be the case. I am not an LP member or supporter. However, I would have thought that by nature and by learning, that is what Starmer would do.
Cross-posted - apologies.

I would have thought so too, and as a LP member and supporter, I also want it to be the case, which is why I am disappointed and confused. I believe that Starmer knows perfectly well that only women have cervixes, for instance, but is afraid to say so as that risks annoying a vociferous and influential minority. But we are going round in circles and squaring none of them, as there is nothing concrete in your posts with which to agree or disagree.

Doodledog Tue 19-Jul-22 16:02:11

Where politicians come into things, however, are less about beliefs and science than about legislation. It is not a belief that men are being given access to women's prisons - it is a fact. It is a fact, not a belief, that men are winning at sport because they are entering in the women's classes, and so on.

Belief may come into it when some people believe that this is ok and others don't, but that is the whole point of political parties - to stand for one set of beliefs or another. They can't 'keep an open mind' forever, as that lets down both 'sides' of the debate, and we all need to know what we are voting for, which is where the thread came in.

Smileless2012 Tue 19-Jul-22 15:59:45

The fact that a woman is an adult female and a man is an adult male is indisputable and immutable. As is the fact that a man cannot become a woman and a woman cannot become a man.

No amount of debate or discussion is ever going to change that

DaisyAnne Tue 19-Jul-22 15:56:38

Doodledog

But you're in the other 'extremist camp' t Glorianna. Sauce for the goose and all that.

DaisyAnne, what do you see as evidence that the LP is open minded? Again, I would very much like to believe that, and if I've missed anything (or have screened it out because of my extremism wink) I'd be genuinely interested to know what it is.

The LP is questioning and testing all the input they are getting, as far as I can see and based on my bias to want that to be the case. I am not an LP member or supporter. However, I would have thought that by nature and by learning, that is what Starmer would do.

DaisyAnne Tue 19-Jul-22 15:44:42

Stormystar

Daisy Anne isn’t there’s a massive difference between a particular viewpoint and perspective, however strongly held or believed in, Than scientific indisputable immutable facts. We all probably consider ourselves to be as open minded as the next person and can hold a view, believe what we choose, and change our minds. But for me Scientific Truth in these maters must hold sway. And I expect to hear that from those in Authority

Stormystar, you ask, "isn’t there’s a massive difference between a particular viewpoint and perspective, however strongly held or believed in, ..."

There is a difference between a point of view/opinion and perspective; they are two different things. An opinion is what you think, perspective is how you think it. You could say that all opinions are reached from an individual's perspective. So no, I don't think there is a "massive difference" between them. One is the parent of the other. But I may have misunderstood you. It is difficult to read that sentence.

You seem to have added "scientific indisputable immutable facts" into the same argument. I'm not able to work out what you are saying. Perhaps you could let me know.

Meanwhile, as far as I know, no scientific facts are indisputable or immutable. We have to make do, although happily so, in most cases, with the latest scientists can provide for us. I think the scientific world would be the first to say that all science is and should be open to debate and that it changes over time, therefore, both disputable and mutable.

Doodledog Tue 19-Jul-22 15:29:34

But you're in the other 'extremist camp' t Glorianna. Sauce for the goose and all that.

DaisyAnne, what do you see as evidence that the LP is open minded? Again, I would very much like to believe that, and if I've missed anything (or have screened it out because of my extremism wink) I'd be genuinely interested to know what it is.

Glorianny Tue 19-Jul-22 15:02:50

DaisyAnne you mistakenly posted in the belief that these threads are there to encourage open discussion. Further research will reveal to you that they are there for the gender critical to encourage each other in their views. Most of us know there are lots of real people out there, just trying to be themselves and they are supported by many of us. But not on these threads. Best not to engage.

DaisyAnne Tue 19-Jul-22 14:52:43

FarNorth

You are mistaken DaisyAnne.

I don't see an answer to my question, in your post.

There you are. Another example of how belief will not replace reasoning. You ask about whether I 'believe' what you 'believe'. Why? The OP's question was: "Is the LP changing it's stance on 'gender'?". I answered that.

If you had read my post, understood it and accepted it as a view I am allowed to hold, you would not be asking that question. I wonder why you feel the need to do so?

Stormystar Tue 19-Jul-22 14:20:01

Daisy Anne isn’t there’s a massive difference between a particular viewpoint and perspective, however strongly held or believed in, Than scientific indisputable immutable facts. We all probably consider ourselves to be as open minded as the next person and can hold a view, believe what we choose, and change our minds. But for me Scientific Truth in these maters must hold sway. And I expect to hear that from those in Authority

Doodledog Tue 19-Jul-22 14:10:53

I understand what you are saying, DA, but it's a bit of a circular argument, as whatever I reply will be written off as coming from a member of an 'extremist camp', and the fact that I don't see it that way will be viewed as irrelevant because (in your opinion) my opinion doesn't matter because I am in an extremist camp. There is no escape from that trap, is there?

Nevertheless (and knowing that in the light of the above I am wasting my time) I will say that until recently I have seen no open-mindedness in LP statements such as 'trans rights are women's rights'. In fact I see no sense in that statement (literally - I don't think it makes sense). Other LP statements have not, in my eyes been 'open-minded' either, although I started this thread as I hope this is changing, and that Rachel Reeves' comments herald a new stage of genuine open-mindedness.

FarNorth Tue 19-Jul-22 13:58:19

You are mistaken DaisyAnne.

I don't see an answer to my question, in your post.