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Is the LP changing its stance on 'gender'?

(394 Posts)
Doodledog Sun 17-Jul-22 23:17:30

I've thought for a while that the worm was turning when it comes to 'trans' issues. It is finally getting through that support for self-id is misogynistic and that gender-criticism is not the same as transphobia. Slowly but surely, court cases and policy changes are moving towards (to my mind) a more sensible approach.

Ironically for many women I know who are broadly left-wing, it has been the Tories who have caught on to this first, and it's interesting that at least two of the leadership candidates have mentioned 'gender politics' or 'culture wars' in their campaigns. Meanwhile, the LP has been woefully behind the times, with idiotic comments about men having cervixes and how transpeople are the most marginalised group in society.

But now it appears that they realise that they are behind the curve, and that many feminists and female-supporting men will struggle to vote for them - or maybe it's that they realise that it's becoming more acceptable to speak against the tyranny, and they are now saying what they really think. Either way (and I speak as a member of the LP) it's not a good look, but it's a better look than the craven adherence to Stonewall's No Debate mantra that we've seen so far.

This is from James Kirkup in the Spectator and for those who don't like links the text is at the bottom of the post.

It's probably obvious that I would be delighted if the LP did a U -turn on this. I'm not delighted at the display of what I see as cowardice that has held sway for so long, but it will be such a relief to be able to vote for the party whose policies are closer to my heart than any of the others without fearing that by doing so I am betraying my daughter and future generations of women.

What do others think? Am I being naively optimistic? Will the Lib Dems, the Greens and SNP rethink their ideas ahead of the GE? Will any of it make a difference to how you vote, or do you think that it isn't important compared to other issues?

Here is the text of the Spectator article:

Amid the noise of the Tory leadership fight, some significant comments in the papers could be missed today. Here’s the quote, from a Sunday Times interview with an intelligent, ambitious female politician in her forties:

“Biology is important. A woman is somebody with a biology that is different from a man’s biology. We’re seeing in sport sensible decisions being made about who cannot compete in certain cases."

Could it reflect a new approach to trans issues from the Labour leadership?
She says she would ‘have a problem’ with someone with male genitals identifying as a woman and using a female changing space, and isn’t entirely sold on the use of gender pronouns. ‘You don’t have to say to someone, “Shall I call you he or she?” – it’s pretty obvious. But there are also difficult cases of somebody who is born as one sex and defines as another. I wouldn’t want to deny their right to define themselves in the way they want to be defined.’

Even by the standards of recent days, that’s pretty punchy. In particular that line on rejecting pronouns because ‘it’s pretty obvious’ strikes me as potentially controversial. I certainly know people and groups who would find that offensive. No candidate in the Tory race has thus been so outspoken on sex and gender. So are those quotes above yet another Conservative attempt to stoke a culture war?

That phrase has been used a lot recently, generally with disapproval and often by people keen to dismiss the concerns that some women raise about the impact of trans-rights policies on their rights and standing. And framing women’s concerns as the product of right-wing, social conservative politics makes them easier for lots of people in politics and the media to ignore and denigrate those concerns as marginal and ideological.

Of course, there’s nothing illegitimate about being either right-wing or socially conservative (I’m neither) but in much of our public discourse, those things are routinely denigrated, put beyond the pale of acceptability. So it’s significant that the author of those comments above cannot possibly be described as a right-winger or a social conservative. She is Rachel Reeves, Labour’s shadow chancellor.

The fact that Reeves, as smart and decent a politician as you’ll find in the Commons today, has said these things could have many implications. Could it strain Labour unity? It’s pretty hard to reconcile those comments with the position of some of her frontbench colleagues.

Could it reflect a new approach to trans issues from the Labour leadership? Reeves is today taking a much clearer line than Sir Keir Starmer, who has been more equivocal. I don’t know the answer to those questions, which can wait for another day.

My point here today is simpler. Rachel Reeves, the Labour shadow chancellor, has backed banning transwomen from women’s sport and excluding them from women’s spaces. And she’s rejected using gendered pronouns. By doing so, Reeves has provided yet more evidence to prove that concerns about trans rights policies and their impact on women’s rights are not right-wing or conservative. Nor are they marginal or ideological.
James Kirkup

Chewbacca Wed 27-Jul-22 19:43:38

A man might like the idea of looking at young women change their clothes before or after swimming and if they say they are women they have a legal right to use the women's pool. The women concerned may feel they have a right to decide who sees them naked, and don't want to undress in front of men.

Whose rights take precedence?

Now, that's what I struggle with. To me, it's so blindingly obvious that a woman/girl, has an absolute right to privacy when she undresses to go swimming or in a gym and I just can't think of any decent reason as to why anyone wouldn't understand that and argue against it, unless there's ill intent. Most men accept that there are just some spaces that they have no place being in and don't want to cause embarrassment, distress or anxiety by forcing their way in. But if a 6'4" person, with a 5 o'clock shadow and an Adam's apple the size of a goose egg walks in and says he's called Lola, even if he's wearing an itsy bitsy, teeny weeny, yellow polka dot bikini....he's a bloke and he has no place in a woman's changing room.

Mollygo Wed 27-Jul-22 19:47:49

Glorianny Bye bye.
Now I'm off this thread because the same views are posted time and time again^( by you as well as others?) ^and I see no reason to give anyone the opportunity to post more prejudice.
That’s exactly what I used to read from other posters who claimed that other posters were prejudiced (whilst ignoring the fact that their own posts demonstrated prejudice). It’s like asking “Do prejudiced people know they’re prejudiced?”

Chewbacca Wed 27-Jul-22 20:52:49

Quite MollyGo grin

Iam64 Wed 27-Jul-22 21:05:48

Glorianny, your complaints and criticisms to gender critical posters can so easily be made towards your own views. You don’t budge either

Galaxy Wed 27-Jul-22 21:14:02

I feel a bit late to this news but have just seen that Alison Bailey has won her discrimination case. A good day. Brave woman.

Doodledog Wed 27-Jul-22 21:32:50

That's great news, Galaxy. The worm is, indeed, turning.

FarNorth Wed 27-Jul-22 21:44:55

From what I've heard, Allison Bailey won her case claiming discrimination by her employer but lost in her claim against Stonewall because Stonewall does not have responsibility for what employers do, despite giving them inaccurate advice.

So I hope this is a big boot up the behind to employers who think that Stonewall Law will do them just fine.

www.theguardian.com/world/2022/jul/27/law-chambers-discriminated-against-gender-critical-barrister-tribunal-rules?amp;amp;amp

This probably needs to have a new thread manufactured about it, rather than being hidden here.
I'll do it tomorrow, if no-one else does it first.

Galaxy Wed 27-Jul-22 21:50:31

Thanks far north.

Galaxy Wed 27-Jul-22 21:53:13

I am just ploughing through it. It surely means employers will no longer take advice on this issue from Stonewall as it leaves them vulnerable to a discrimination case.

Doodledog Wed 27-Jul-22 22:16:49

Galaxy

I am just ploughing through it. It surely means employers will no longer take advice on this issue from Stonewall as it leaves them vulnerable to a discrimination case.

That's what I have taken from it.

If the verdict had held Stonewall even collectively responsible, employers/clients would assume that it was in its (Stonewall's) interests to keep within the law, as it would send to lose financially if it got things wrong.

As it is, their advice not backed up with consequences for them if they get it wrong, and the employers have to pay out, so it is bound to reduce the number of clients they get. Nobody will trust them to tell the truth.

FarNorth Wed 27-Jul-22 22:19:24

Great stuff!

Galaxy Wed 27-Jul-22 22:30:51

I was always quite nervous about this one as I didnt really see how stonewall would be held responsible but this is a good result I think.

FarNorth Wed 27-Jul-22 22:42:00

it is bound to reduce the number of clients they get. Nobody will trust them to tell the truth.

Not only that, those who have already taken their advice should have another good think about the policies they've brought in.

Doodledog Wed 27-Jul-22 23:29:35

Good point. I think it is a significant verdict- in a good way.

grannydarkhair Thu 28-Jul-22 02:40:03

Glorianny Your claim that the Stonewall riots were led by trans people, etc. is wrong. It’s only relatively recently that this idea has been promulgated. And by who? Trans activists of course. Please see below for a piece by someone who was actually there, and not born years after the events.

grahamlinehan.substack.com/p/fred-sargeant-debunks-the-latest?r=k9z5j&s=r&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=email

Doodledog Thu 28-Jul-22 07:41:31

Thanks, gdh, that is an interesting read.
1969 would have been an awful time to be gay (or bi, or trans - or black for that matter), and we can’t judge anyone by the standards of today; but I still believe that the detail of what happened then in the US has no bearing on either the behaviour of the UK pressure group that shares a name with the club where the riots started or the behaviour of the TRAs it has radicalised. Glorianny’s diversion into her version of revisionist history is just that - a diversion.

What we are dealing with now is the fact that a group which started as a much-needed proponent of gay rights has, in recent years, adopted an agenda that is misogynist and homophobic, and morphed into something very different from what it used to be. In a (laudable) effort to support equality for all too many eyes were taken off the ball, and this agenda was allowed to gain a stranglehold in a terrifying number of organisations.

This is a list of the ‘Diversity Champions’ who pay thousands each to Stonewall for the right to say that they comply with their agenda.. The ones in red have left. I hadn’t realised how many people were on it until seeing this list on a Mumsnet thread about the Allison Bailey case. It may seem like a triviality when they bring out a policy such as recommending that staff declare pronouns on email signatures, but seeing how many large organisations are impacted gives an idea of how many employees that covers, and suddenly it’s not trivial at all.

If the AB case does nothing else (and I really don’t think it will do nothing else) it will open people’s eyes to the reality of Stonewall in 21st Century Britain - regardless of who did what in NY all those years ago.

Iam64 Thu 28-Jul-22 08:16:38

What we are dealing with now is the fact a group which started out as a Much needed proponent of gay rights has, in recent years, adopted an agenda that is misogynistic and homophobic, morphed into something very different from what it used to be.
Doodledog, I read this and was reminded of the conflict in the womens movement in the late 70’s, early 80’s . I wasn’t the only woman to leave the group I’d been involved with for some years when ‘boy children’ over the age of 6 or 8 were excluded.

FarNorth Thu 28-Jul-22 08:34:26

Wow DD it's quite something, looking down that list.
Just seeing the figure of 850 doesn't give a mental picture of how many that really is, especially as many are very big organisations.

Thanks for the article grannydarkhair.

Doodledog Thu 28-Jul-22 09:28:56

FarNorth

Wow DD it's quite something, looking down that list.
Just seeing the figure of 850 doesn't give a mental picture of how many that really is, especially as many are very big organisations.

Thanks for the article grannydarkhair.

I know! I was quite shocked when I saw it, and as you say, when you think of the number of employees in councils, educational establishments and other large employers, it is clear that the reach of Stonewall has been vast.

It will be interesting to see how many more red lines will appear on the list over the coming weeks though, as more and more organisations leave. What is the point of belonging to (and paying money to) an organisation that has no responsibility to give you good advice, and whose 'expertise' on the law has been roundly called into question?

Mollygo Thu 28-Jul-22 11:16:22

Thanks for all today’s posts. DD, FN, GDH, Iam64 and any I’ve missed. That list is amazing and let’s hope there are more red lines.

Galaxy Thu 28-Jul-22 13:44:44

Have you seen the news. The tavistock is to be closed down. BBC news.

Chewbacca Thu 28-Jul-22 13:47:44

You beat me to it Galaxy I was just about to post the same thing.

Tavistock and Portman NHS Foundation Trust has been told to close its gender clinic by spring after it was criticised in an independent review.

New regional centres will be set up to "ensure the holistic needs" of children are fully considered, the NHS said.

The independent review, led by Dr Hilary Cass, said the Tavistock clinic needed to be transformed.

Galaxy Thu 28-Jul-22 13:50:53

Thanks chewbacca for writing that out. The whistleblowers and the women who have been raising concerns should be thanked for their persistence.

Rosie51 Thu 28-Jul-22 13:56:02

Galaxy

Thanks chewbacca for writing that out. The whistleblowers and the women who have been raising concerns should be thanked for their persistence.

They certainly should! It took a lot of guts to swim against the tide and take the flack they did.

Iam64 Thu 28-Jul-22 13:58:10

Well done Dr Hilary Cass and the whistleblowers. Here’s hoping the tide is turning