The Forde Report what should happen now?

Ilovecheese

So, Casdon do you see Keir Starmer as being like Mark Drakeford? I would like to believe that.
MaisieD
I will have to have a think about what I have seen the Labour party say.
One thing I remember is Wes Streeting saying that they would continue to use private providers in the NHS because the public liked it. It was on a radio interview but maybe it was out of context?. Then there is Keir Starmer not wanting to nationalize the energy companies when this seems like the perfect time to be in favour of a policy which would help so many people, like has happened in France.

But I suppose what still hurts is Rachel Reeves saying that she is glad that people like me have left the party, or Wes Streeting calling people like me barnacles. Or the inference that people like me are anti semitic. Those sorts of remarks are the sort of thing that makes me feel that I just can't be bothered with that sort of Labour leadership.

I think both Mark Drakeford and Keir Starmer are slow burners Ilovecheese. Nobody thought Mark Drakeford would be popular, but through years of hard work, persistence and demonstrating his integrity he has become so. I think he and Starmer are similar in that respect. I don’t envy Starmer’s task at all, but I do think he’s done what he had no option but to do to make the party electable again. I don’t think his values are different to Drakeford, I think it will take many years of hard slog to change the systems in England in particular though. He’s a pragmatist, he’s done a thorough investigation, and knows that effectively buying back privatised energy companies cannot be afforded, at least in the first term of a Labour Government, so he will seek to minimise their profits at the expense of customers. The biggest problem he has is convincing the idealists that Rome can’t be built in a day, this is a massive undertaking.
Wes Streeting was talking about the management of waiting lists if I remember correctly by the way, for straightforward operations it will reduce NHS waiting lists over the next few years if there is a contract with the private sector because the waiting times on the NHS can’t be reduced until more staff are employed and trained, there just isn’t the capacity to do so. That doesn’t mean he’s in favour of the private sector, again he was being pragmatic.

Ilovecheese you are right to be worried the direction Starmer is taking Labour.

Private health providers is not the answer Casdon

If you read this

tribunemag.co.uk/2022/01/wes-streeting-labour-nhs-waiting-lists-private-healthcare-covid

It said nationalisation is what Spain did during the covid crisis.

Grany

Ilovecheese you are right to be worried the direction Starmer is taking Labour.

Private health providers is not the answer Casdon

If you read this

tribunemag.co.uk/2022/01/wes-streeting-labour-nhs-waiting-lists-private-healthcare-covid

It said nationalisation is what Spain did during the covid crisis.

Grany I never said private healthcare providers was the answer. Pragmatism is not one of your qualities is it? Spain is not the UK, and managing a Covid emergency is not providing routine surgical and orthopaedic operations. One government term is insufficient to change a health system which has been in operation for 75 years. I worked in the NHS for 40 years, I know exactly how it works. Softy softy catchy monkey.

What I was impressed with Starmer was his strength of character.

Clearly there are pressures on him from all sides on various issues, like showing Labours hand in relation to policies, pressure from the discontented left of the party, and the knowledge that the media will drop on him from a great height if he gives them a chance etc., but he knows exactly what needs doing, has set an agenda and pathway and is forging ahead step by step.

MaizieD

Glorianny

MaizieD

Glorianny

Interesting though that Harold Wilson who could speak BBC English when he chose always used a Northern accent in his speeches.
I think that politics generally has taken a massive step to the right and what was centre left for Tony Blair is now seen as the loony left. I just wonder how far to the right we can go and if it will take people dying of cold and starvation before sensible policies which limit profits, pay reasonable wages and provide proper support for the weakest and poorest are re-introduced.

Can you say what your comments are based on? Labour publications or just 'feelings'?

Privatisation and profits mostly along with a real lack of commitment to the Trade Union movement, no policy to provide adequate social housing and regulate the private rental sector, along with no real commitment to keep the NHS a public service and reverse the privatisation already in place. Not to mention the growth of academies and other places of education which are of course intent on paying huge salaries to the top people and the lowest possible to the grass roots workers. (Can you see a theme here?)
Blair remember only just managed to get rid of Clause 4 in the face of much objection. Even mentioning public ownership now causes the leader to have apoplexy.

What I really meant was: 'What is the source of your comments?'

This was asked some time ago but I've just got back. So here goes. Starmer himself has said that the aim to take back ownership of the energy companies won't happen. The argument he uses is that it would cost too much but these are companies making huge profits which could pay their way so that's questionable. There's a rail strike going on an ideal time to criticise the rail companies and say the franchises will stop and we will have a joined up national rail system again. The silence is deafening. Meantime membership of the LP has fallen massively with approximately half the paying members it had in 2020, so funding is going to be a problem. Word is that Starmer is seeking money from private business to support the party. So what we will in fact have is two parties owned by private companies and no representation for the ordinary citizen. If you think about it ,it is what Starmer has been working towards since he became leader.

Well, many people wouldn’t vote for Labour because they felt it was controlled by the unions and their leaders ( eg Len McCluskey) so where do they get their funding from ? I think private business realised long ago that Starmer was more on their side than f**k business Boris was. I can’t see a problem with that. There has to be a better balance and I think Keir is the man to find it.

Rachel Reeves, has given an interview to the Mirror she wants to offer less than the Tories’ already-insulting pay rise for the public sector.

No UBI

Then

"unless you grow the economy, it is not possible to improve living standards and have the money to invest in public services"

The key to improving living standards funding investment, is reduced corporate profiteering, proper taxation, as well as real economics,

instead of the household-budget guff used to con the public for more than a decade now – and people having more money in their pockets will grow the economy automatically.

I do agree with you, Grany. Rachel Reeves is very ignorant of how a domestic economy works.

(But even Corbyn couldn't bring himself to believe in any alternative model.)

But when practically the whole of the media and the voting public believe the 'Household economy guff' and will attack Labour for any hint of profligacy I can understand the caution.

Infuriating when the tories have spaffed £billions over the past 2 years without a murmur from the media.

The fantastic Mick Lynch "We've got more billionaires than ever... there's plenty of money in the economy, it's just in the hands of the wrong people"

Well Mick Lynch is perfectly correct isn't he.
I have just been looking at an extract from Winston Churchill's manifesto from 1945.
Sounded quite radical, talking about a mass house building programme and saying that while we have a shortage of housing we must have rent controls.
I think nowadays rent controls would be viewed as "hard left".

Ilovecheese

Well Mick Lynch is perfectly correct isn't he.
I have just been looking at an extract from Winston Churchill's manifesto from 1945.
Sounded quite radical, talking about a mass house building programme and saying that while we have a shortage of housing we must have rent controls.
I think nowadays rent controls would be viewed as "hard left".

Again no though Ilovecheese Wales is looking to introduce rent controls and it’s not ‘hard left’ by any stretch.
www.nrla.org.uk/research/deep-insight/rent-controls-wales
I think there is a lot of wilful misinterpretation going on.

The Forde report: my experience of Southside in 2017
After 27 months the much-delayed inquiry has arrived — having worked at the heart of the struggle between the Corbyn team and the permanent party staff, I know the grim picture it paints to be true, writes BEN SELLERS

morningstaronline.co.uk/article/f/forde-report-my-experience-southside-2017

Wales again though Casdon I hope you are right that Keir Starmer will be more like Mark Drakeford in future.

MayBee70

Well, many people wouldn’t vote for Labour because they felt it was controlled by the unions and their leaders ( eg Len McCluskey) so where do they get their funding from ? I think private business realised long ago that Starmer was more on their side than f**k business Boris was. I can’t see a problem with that. There has to be a better balance and I think Keir is the man to find it.

Funny isn't it Unions which have at the heart the working people are seen as somehow evil but private companies intent on making more profits for their shareholders are considered suitable funders. Meantime profits go through the roof and workers struggle to keep up with rising prices. And having only political parties acting for private interests is seen as desirable. Extraordinary that some can't see the link between these things.

Well, unless we become a communist state I don’t see how we can exist if we don’t work with private companies. Surely we can reach some sort of balance. Not all private companies treat their employees badly do they. But if they do we need to stop that. It doesn’t have to be either or does it?

It isn't a choice between communism and capitalism. It's having a mixed economy which provides essentials for working people at reasonable costs. Why should anyone make huge profits out of supplying essentials? There are companies making huge profits, paying huge salaries to executives but refusing wage rises to their ordinary workers who are struggling with rising costs. A decent place to live, healthcare, food, water and power should be available to everyone at a reasonable cost. Sadly one of the LP policies which might have helped so many -providing power from a non-profit making publicly owned power company- has already been dumped by Starmer.

thousands marched through London to demand:

? No new oil
? Tax big polluters and billionaires
?Energy for all
? Insulate our homes
? Cheap public transport

WeAllWantToJustStopOil.com

Lots of groups wanting change joined together.

Labour's Forde report is devastating on factional war against Corbyn

Peter Oborne

Keir Starmer should act on the findings but he has fashioned himself as the nemesis of the Labour left and not a statesman who can bring together all factions of his party

Rebecca Long-Bailey calls for Labour to drop cautious approach to economy
Former leadership contender wants manifesto to include state ownership and a living standards contract for citizens

www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/jul/24/rebecca-long-bailey-calls-for-labour-to-drop-cautious-approach-to-economy

Now Keir Starmer is talking about magic money trees. Says he is going to prioritise "growth".
Hardly inspiring is it.
I am trying, I really am, and then I see this sort of thing on the news.

Grany

Labour's Forde report is devastating on factional war against Corbyn

Peter Oborne

Keir Starmer should act on the findings but he has fashioned himself as the nemesis of the Labour left and not a statesman who can bring together all factions of his party

Rebecca Long-Bailey calls for Labour to drop cautious approach to economy
Former leadership contender wants manifesto to include state ownership and a living standards contract for citizens

www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/jul/24/rebecca-long-bailey-calls-for-labour-to-drop-cautious-approach-to-economy

The Forde report is also devastating about Corbyn’s inability to deal with the situation Grany, it got worse under his leadership, leaving one hell of a mess for Starmer to work through - whoops, you forgot to mention that bit.
The Forde report was published a week ago, there are no magic wands, and the answer is not just to give the left of the party what they want - that’s how we got here in the first place.

Ilovecheese

Now Keir Starmer is talking about magic money trees. Says he is going to prioritise "growth".
Hardly inspiring is it.
I am trying, I really am, and then I see this sort of thing on the news.

You will only get 'growth' in the economy if you invest in the economy.

I don't know where you get the 'magic money tree' idea from, because I haven't seen or heard the Starmer statement you're referring to, but...

Thinking about what we do know about Labour's future plans, they have said they will invest £28billion a year in the 'green economy'. This may not be enough to achieve net zero, but at least it's a step in the right direction. And it will create opportunities for 'green' industries and mean job creation. There is masses to be done, what with retro fitting homes to be energy efficient and developing and expanding 'green' technology. Is this not 'growth'?

labour.org.uk/stronger-together/britain-2030/green-and-digital-future/

I do still contend that they are being held back by their ludicrous insistence that the country's books have to 'balance' and failure to understand that state spending is limited only by the resources available for the money to be spent on, but perhaps they'll work it out at some time. Or perhaps they even know, but don't want to give hostages to the right wing media and the tories. (The tories, BTW, have discovered the 'magic money tree' and used it relentlessly to the benefit of their friends, families and donors)

Casdon

Grany

Labour's Forde report is devastating on factional war against Corbyn

Peter Oborne

Keir Starmer should act on the findings but he has fashioned himself as the nemesis of the Labour left and not a statesman who can bring together all factions of his party

Rebecca Long-Bailey calls for Labour to drop cautious approach to economy
Former leadership contender wants manifesto to include state ownership and a living standards contract for citizens

www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/jul/24/rebecca-long-bailey-calls-for-labour-to-drop-cautious-approach-to-economy

The Forde report is also devastating about Corbyn’s inability to deal with the situation Grany, it got worse under his leadership, leaving one hell of a mess for Starmer to work through - whoops, you forgot to mention that bit.
The Forde report was published a week ago, there are no magic wands, and the answer is not just to give the left of the party what they want - that’s how we got here in the first place.

The left of the party have never demanded anything. They embraced Corbyn because his ideals were theirs. When Starmer stood for election they took him at his word and believed he would unite the party. Unfortunately all his actions have shown he has no intention of doing so. The question is if he can be so duplicitous about this how can he be trusted to do anything he says he will?
If he honestly believed the party needed to move to the right to win an election he could have said so, but then he wouldn't have won the leadership would he? So self interest is his primary aim.

The Forde report is also devastating about Corbyn’s inability to deal with the situation Grany, it got worse under his leadership, leaving one hell of a mess for Starmer to work through

In 2018 Corbyn had a report commissioned by Chakrabati
And Jenny Formby cleared backlog left deliberately by MC Nicol Antsemitism was politically used to undermine Corbyn as Forde Report states. Starmer should impliment changes. Starmer weaponised antisemitism against Corbyn we all know it's a scam. There was very little 00.1 when Starmer took over.

The far left wanted Corbyn’s ideals, the country didn’t

If he honestly believed the party needed to move to the right to win an election he could have said so, but then he wouldn't have won the leadership would he?

Well, there's the conundrum, isn't it?

The LP was never going to win an election with overtly left wing policies; the voting public is, for some obscure reason, scared of them (as noted,by, IIRC, Ilovecheese last week some time). I haven't the faintest idea 'why' they're scared of them, but for example, surveys have shown that people are supportive of 'left wing' policies but when told they are Labour policies they say that they won't vote Labour. It's baffling.

So, IMO, if Labour want to gain power they have to appear to be more centrist; it's pragmatic and realist. I think that Starmer is well aware of this and acts accordingly. If people think this is duplicitous that's unfortunate, but as someone else has pointed out on this thread, there are millions of voters out there with no fixed political ideas or even much political awareness. But Labour needs their votes to gain power. How else are they going to be able to implement their policies?

I have to say that I feel I can place more trust in a man who says he wants to see the country run properly than in any crowd pleasing populist.