Labour sacks shadow transport minister who backed strikes.

I actually came on this morning to answer the OP.

Labour sacks shadow transport minister who backed strikes.

Starmer sacked someone for giving unagreed interviews, as I understand it. So the title was incorrect.

However, what would happen, do you think, if Starmer and the Labour Party backed the strike?

GrannyGravy13

DaisyAnne

Just a thought, Prentice and GrannyGravy. Would you say those who put and kept the German government in power from 1933 - 1945 bore no responsibility? Obviously it varies. Those, like GG13 relatives who left the party, mitigated their responsibility. Those who knew exactly what was going on were most responsible - as would be the current members of our government.

There is a moral burden on citizens if you wish to continue democracy.

Going by your logic, I and many thousands of mothers/fathers/wives/husbands should blame the electorate who voted in Tony Blair, who subsequently sent our Armed Forces into an illegal war in Iraq, many never to return, many returned injured both mentally and physically.

Fortunately I am intelligent enough to realise that any blame is fairly on Mr.Blair.

The same applies to all those who put their X’s on a ballot paper, after that the decisions are made by politicians, they are the ones who should be held accountable…

I agree with GrannyGravy13 on this point about the voting public DaisyAnne
We cannot know what a PM will do, or the government when putting our X on the ballot paper.
Many voted to keep Mr Corbyn out of Number10, many Labour voters did that actually.
Others saw Mr Johnson as perhaps a bit of a joker, but thought he would get things done.Most of the voting public do not study the minutiae of politics or politicians, either through lack of time or lack of interest.They make the best judgement they can near the time of a general election.
As a Labour voter I was impressed by some of the things that Mr Blair got done but would not have voted for him had I known about the war in Iraq.That’s the point, we do not know in advance, and I feel repugnance for this blaming of voters.

Glorianny

Casdon

Glorianny

So instead of explaining why he is honest and trustworthy you tell me he really isn't but that's OK because he might win an election. That explains a lot.
Personally I would like to see someone who really works to unite the LP then there might be a chance of winning an election. Anyone asked the Red Wall what they think of Starmer?
Oh and a donkey could win over any electorate subjected to the Tories leadership battle.

I didn’t say that. He’s not dishonest, he hasn’t lied, he has compromised, but your interpretation is purist not pragmatic. The majority of people are able to see why he has had to make compromises. I’m am fed up with the obsession with the man rather than the way forward. He is the butt of your angst, but nobody at all could do the job you’re wanting them to do, it’s impossible. For that reason the truth is that nobody will unite the Labour Party. Answer me on Wales please.

Don't know much about Wales so I'm sorry why would I comment? I don't live there or anywhere near there. Is it polite to demand answers?
I'm quite interested in Scotland if you have a question about that.

As a Labour supporter I’m very surprised indeed that you know nothing about the success of the Labour Party, in Wales, and what they have done since they were the majority party when the Welsh Assembly was formed in 1999, to stay in power against the UK trends, that’s why I asked you.

There have been four leaders in Wales, lots of Labour leaders, several Labour PMs since then. Mark Drakeford the current leader is the most un charismatic leader you could meet - but he is a pragmatist. His personal leanings are more left wing than Keir Starmer, but he knows that he has to get consensus, he has to work with Plaid, and the Lib Dems. We have some seats appointed by proportional representation, which has its pros and cons. The point I keep making which is being ignored, is that despite all the constraints, Labour policies are being implemented in Wales. All the fears of the left are unrealised.

Drakeford and Starmer have a healthy respect for each other, they don’t agree on everything - but they are cut from the same cloth, they both know there are many ways to achieve your objectives and that flexibility, listening to the electorate rather than the party and being prepared to compromise to reach your long term goal in the end is the only way forward.

Thanks for your post Prentice. I still admire the Blair government, remember clearly my work in areas of high deprivation becoming less depressing as new community schools which were also libraries, family centres, had social workers, midwives, health visitors all available under one roof to support families.
Iraq was a disaster. I was one of the many marching - not in my name. It’s one of those occasions when being right achieves nothing. Much like being right that a Johnson government would benefit the rich but not the rest
I’m in a red wall area. Many people voted Tory to stop Corbyn. Same in the nearby area with a large Jewish community, they voted anything to keep Corbyn out of Downing Street
Let’s hope Starmer can keep the rolling ship steady

Iam64 I didn’t vote for Mr.Blair however I do recognise his achievements.

The U.K. needs strong opposition to hold the Governing Party to account. I wish the infighting in the Labour Party would stop.

The infighting is like a skirmish over a scrappy bit of land. One day the real enemy will appear and shoot the lot of them. Absolutely nothing will have been achieved, and the U.K. will be done for.

So if it isn't lying to promise to unite a party and then not only throw out people who disagree with you, but reward others who have worked against the party leader, and at the same time antagonise over 200,000 people so much they leave the party what is it? It's either lying, incompetence or succumbing to influences that persuaded you to abandon that promise. Any way it doesn't look good for someone who wants to lead the country. Do we really need a leader who can't keep his word?

Iam64

Thanks for your post Prentice. I still admire the Blair government, remember clearly my work in areas of high deprivation becoming less depressing as new community schools which were also libraries, family centres, had social workers, midwives, health visitors all available under one roof to support families.
Iraq was a disaster. I was one of the many marching - not in my name. It’s one of those occasions when being right achieves nothing. Much like being right that a Johnson government would benefit the rich but not the rest
I’m in a red wall area. Many people voted Tory to stop Corbyn. Same in the nearby area with a large Jewish community, they voted anything to keep Corbyn out of Downing Street
Let’s hope Starmer can keep the rolling ship steady

I'm always interested how will Starmer, a Remainer, a lawyer, part of the Westminster elite, with the media personality of a doormat manage to win back the red wall?

What we want is to get rid of the Tories, not all this bickering. There is plenty of time ( years) to sort the Labour Party out.

People, in extreme poverty, who will die of cold, who are waiting in pain for an operation will never forgive such infantile behaviour, and frankly neither would I.

Whitewavemark2

The infighting is like a skirmish over a scrappy bit of land. One day the real enemy will appear and shoot the lot of them. Absolutely nothing will have been achieved, and the U.K. will be done for.

I'm afraid that's much as I feel too, WWM.

Glorianny

So if it isn't lying to promise to unite a party and then not only throw out people who disagree with you, but reward others who have worked against the party leader, and at the same time antagonise over 200,000 people so much they leave the party what is it? It's either lying, incompetence or succumbing to influences that persuaded you to abandon that promise. Any way it doesn't look good for someone who wants to lead the country. Do we really need a leader who can't keep his word?

That’s exactly how I feel Glorianny. I take no pleasure in feeling disappointed by Starmer, I really wish he would rise to the challenge. I’m not looking back, no point. I feel at the moment as a country we’re on our way to hell in a handcart.

You are making the perfect the enemy of good.

Glorianny

Iam64

Thanks for your post Prentice. I still admire the Blair government, remember clearly my work in areas of high deprivation becoming less depressing as new community schools which were also libraries, family centres, had social workers, midwives, health visitors all available under one roof to support families.
Iraq was a disaster. I was one of the many marching - not in my name. It’s one of those occasions when being right achieves nothing. Much like being right that a Johnson government would benefit the rich but not the rest
I’m in a red wall area. Many people voted Tory to stop Corbyn. Same in the nearby area with a large Jewish community, they voted anything to keep Corbyn out of Downing Street
Let’s hope Starmer can keep the rolling ship steady

I'm always interested how will Starmer, a Remainer, a lawyer, part of the Westminster elite, with the media personality of a doormat manage to win back the red wall?

That’s a vile thing to say about a thoroughly decent person. I can remember Corbyn sitting in parliament glaring at some of his colleagues…one that sticks in my mind was when he glared at Hilary Benn who gave the most wonderful speech one day that Corbyn didn’t y approve of. Corbyn got lots of young people to join the Labour Party because he promised to scrap tuition fees. The very people that were chanting oh Jeremy Corbyn at Glastonbury were later chanting where’s Jeremy Corbyn when Keir was with us on the peoples vote marches. Corbyn never even had the decency to admit that he supported brexit. But then he had such an amazing personality and charisma didn’t he. So much so that people were saying on the doorstep that they couldn’t vote Labour because of him.

Whitewavemark2

You are making the perfect the enemy of good.

Not at all whitewave I am very open to compromise, I’m a realist and I want this government out at the earliest opportunity. But integrity, trustworthiness and honesty is my bottom line and that’s where I feel Starmer fails. Clearly not everyone agrees but that’s my view. I’m not saying I wouldn’t vote Labour despite that, just that I can’t trust the leader.

But you trusted Corbyn who said one thing about be it but believed another?

Starmer, like Blair, understands that he needs to reach the floating vote/middle ground.

Corbyn failed, because mainstream voters wouldn't vote for him.

Even as a Labour member from 1979 until Corbyn became leader, I wouldn't have voted for him.

nightowl

Whitewavemark2

You are making the perfect the enemy of good.

Not at all whitewave I am very open to compromise, I’m a realist and I want this government out at the earliest opportunity. But integrity, trustworthiness and honesty is my bottom line and that’s where I feel Starmer fails. Clearly not everyone agrees but that’s my view. I’m not saying I wouldn’t vote Labour despite that, just that I can’t trust the leader.

As I said above, the most important thing is to get shot of the most destructive government ever.

Everywhere you look we are in crises. Crises in housing, crises in NHS, crises in the economy, crises in cost of living, crises in energy, on and on.

As long as people of the left and not so left use their vote intelligently to crush this evil, we can then begin to plan for the future, but it won’t be easy, has there ever been a future government which has had to face such a wreckage?

DiamondLily

Starmer, like Blair, understands that he needs to reach the floating vote/middle ground.

Corbyn failed, because mainstream voters wouldn't vote for him.

Even as a Labour member from 1979 until Corbyn became leader, I wouldn't have voted for him.

I think you are correct DiamondLily whichever party catches the attention of the middle ground and the floating voter will win the next GE.

Integrity, trustworthiness and honesty cannot be applied to
Corbyn, not in private or public life.

MayBee70

Glorianny

Iam64

Thanks for your post Prentice. I still admire the Blair government, remember clearly my work in areas of high deprivation becoming less depressing as new community schools which were also libraries, family centres, had social workers, midwives, health visitors all available under one roof to support families.
Iraq was a disaster. I was one of the many marching - not in my name. It’s one of those occasions when being right achieves nothing. Much like being right that a Johnson government would benefit the rich but not the rest
I’m in a red wall area. Many people voted Tory to stop Corbyn. Same in the nearby area with a large Jewish community, they voted anything to keep Corbyn out of Downing Street
Let’s hope Starmer can keep the rolling ship steady

I'm always interested how will Starmer, a Remainer, a lawyer, part of the Westminster elite, with the media personality of a doormat manage to win back the red wall?

That’s a vile thing to say about a thoroughly decent person. I can remember Corbyn sitting in parliament glaring at some of his colleagues…one that sticks in my mind was when he glared at Hilary Benn who gave the most wonderful speech one day that Corbyn didn’t y approve of. Corbyn got lots of young people to join the Labour Party because he promised to scrap tuition fees. The very people that were chanting oh Jeremy Corbyn at Glastonbury were later chanting where’s Jeremy Corbyn when Keir was with us on the peoples vote marches. Corbyn never even had the decency to admit that he supported brexit. But then he had such an amazing personality and charisma didn’t he. So much so that people were saying on the doorstep that they couldn’t vote Labour because of him.

I trust someone who just glares at a person in his party he disagrees with more than I trust someone who just chucks his opponents out of the party. One is a mature attitude the other is childish^ I don't like what you say so you can't play in my yard^ Unfortunately Starmer doesn't seem to realise it isn't really his yard, he's just been leant it.
Anyway why keep harping on about Corbyn? Possibly because here is so little to say about Starmer?

So yet again what do you want? Another ten years of Tory government? Because you hate Keir? What about the rest of the party that will make an amazing government? Yvette, Jess, Wes, Tulip, Peter, Chris Bryant? Who do you want to be leader? How are you going to achieve it? Do you just want Truss for PM so you can continually moan about how much better your kind of Labour Party would be. Or are you worried that Keir might just make this country a better place? Because nothing can be worse than what we have now.

Whitewavemark2

You are making the perfect the enemy of good.

Exactly Whitewave.

nightowl

Whitewavemark2

You are making the perfect the enemy of good.

Not at all whitewave I am very open to compromise, I’m a realist and I want this government out at the earliest opportunity. But integrity, trustworthiness and honesty is my bottom line and that’s where I feel Starmer fails. Clearly not everyone agrees but that’s my view. I’m not saying I wouldn’t vote Labour despite that, just that I can’t trust the leader.

There is nothing wrong with his integrity, his trustworthiness or his honesty.

If you would still vote Labour "despite" your view, why argue it in public? Aren't you more likely to encourage people not to vote labour by doing so - or is that what you want so that you can feel righteous?

Glorianny

So if it isn't lying to promise to unite a party and then not only throw out people who disagree with you, but reward others who have worked against the party leader, and at the same time antagonise over 200,000 people so much they leave the party what is it? It's either lying, incompetence or succumbing to influences that persuaded you to abandon that promise. Any way it doesn't look good for someone who wants to lead the country. Do we really need a leader who can't keep his word?

It is only your "opinion" that throwing out the people causing dissent was counter to uniting the party. It could equally (or perhaps, more so) be seen as a sensible first step. So, because of your "opinion", Starmer is a liar. Many would not agree.

You aren't a Labour Party supporter, are you Glorianny?

Oh dear Daisyanne where do I begin?

It is my opinion that Starmer cannot be trusted for all the reasons stated quite a few times by different posters. I said I accept that others don’t agree with me, so please accept that I don’t agree with you. I have given reasons for my opinion, whereas you have simply stated ‘there is nothing wrong with his integrity, his trustworthiness or his honesty’ as if it were a fact rather than just your opinion.

As to criticising him in public, am I not allowed to do that? Should we simply toe the party line and never speak out when we feel disappointed in our leaders? Do I really believe my views will discourage people from voting Labour? I don’t think I have that much influence to be honest, but anyway, I thought debate was no all about exchanging views in a polite and reasoned manner.

As your last question (facetious as it is) falls so far short of that benchmark I will choose to ignore it. I don’t believe in personalising discussions.