Labour sacks shadow transport minister who backed strikes.

Ilovecheese

The left can hardly "bludgeon others into agreeing with their views."
Most of them have been expelled along with Ken Loach.

Thankfully, Andy Burnham and Sadiq Khan are more willing to support working people when they are driven to take industrial action.

I don't think they can, Ilovecheese. However, I doesn't seem to stop them think they can use rhetoric and misplaced moves to force change in the positions of those who lead their party.

When has anyone said they aren't willing to support working people or the NHS (as suggested by Glorianny)? There is little they can do when out of power. Perhaps you can quote where Starmer and shadow cabinet said that, if elected, they will not start to work in these areas. With what they are likely to inherit, it will not be possible to do it all at once. Politics is the art of the possible, not denying the possible while we wait, and wait and wait for perfection.

A local left wing politician was thrown out of the party but stood at the last election against the Labour candidate, thus splitting the vote, even though a Labour victory would have resulted in Corbyn being PM. So it wasn’t just the more right wing members of the party that were working against a Labour victory.

It’s just all exaggeration and misinterpretation. There’s a Labour Government in Wales, and none of the predicted disasters the left are talking about have happened here, in fact the opposite.

Grany

I agree with Glorianny Ilovecheese nightowl

Starmer was on a picket line in 2019 what is he going to do sack himself.

I'm sure you agree with them Grany. They share your bias toward the far-left. Sadly, far-left views will not help the Labour Party and other centre and centre-left parties form a government.

It doesn't matter what Andy Burnham and Sadiq Khan do. Without government, the Tories will move us further and further to the right. We will all suffer. The Labour Party needs the centre and the centre-left to believe in them so that they vote for them. The far-left is such a small percentage of the country they cannot bring Labour to power and, as we have seen, turn the centrists away from voting for them.

DaisyAnne - spot on.

Maybee, one person on Facebook saying they will spoil their vote rather than vote for the current Labour Party does not speak for all disaffected Labour voters. People say a lot of things on Facebook that are not necessarily true and are not to be taken seriously.

As for not knowing what they want, well I don’t know who ‘they’ are but I can tell you what I want from a Labour leader - someone who is honest and principled, has beliefs, someone who will represent and stand up for ordinary working people. I would love to see a truly left leaning government which will take all essential public services back into public ownership and pledge to maintain the NHS. I accept that socialism has never been an essential element of the Labour Party, so I’m unlikely to see everything I want. I am able to accept compromise in the hope of progress towards a more equal society. I really don’t consider these beliefs to particularly radical or extremely left wing.

I am very disappointed in Keir Starmer, because I really don’t know what are his beliefs or principles. I know that now he doesn’t support public ownership, or strikes. That suggests to me that he doesn’t support the rights of ordinary working people. I am disappointed that he has already broken most if not all the pledges he made and this suggests to me that he is not a man who can be trusted. When he said, within a couple of months of being elected, ‘the Labour Party is under new management’ it jarred with me and I’ve never been able to shake it off. Political parties don’t need managers, they need leaders; they are movements, not businesses. If Starmer doesn’t know the difference then I really don’t think he’s in the right job.

Daisyanne I’m not far left. I’m a socialist, I want a fairer society. I don’t know what you define as far left?

I do trust Keir. I’ve listened to him talk about his beliefs. About what has shaped him. I was in tears when I listened to him on Desert Island Discs. I don’t think he finds it easy speaking about his family and his beliefs.I don’t understand why so many people don’t see him as I do. It isn’t just one person on Facebook speaking that way. It’s constant and Dianne Abbott belittles Keir day after day. There’s no alternative. He’s the party leader, there’s going to be an election and I don’t want another Conservative government. They unite behind whichever leader they have. I didn’t like Corbyn but I voted for him. I think Keir has more of a socialist soul than Corbyn but he sees that you can’t do anything if you’d can’t get elected. Maybe I’m wrong but I think it’s worth the risk.

I accept we don’t have much choice Maybee. I certainly don’t want another Tory government. But it doesn’t stop me being sadly disappointed with the current Labour alternative.

I've posted this before. It's from the Labour website; their 'Stronger Together ' report. I don't think it would be there if it hadn't been approved by the Labour leader.

We need a New Deal for Working People, at the heart of which should be the commitment that workers have full rights from day one on the job. We should see an end to multiple different categories of employment under which working people are denied basic access to rights and protections such as Statutory Sick Pay (which should increase from its current levels), National Minimum Wage entitlement, holiday, paid parental leave and protection against unfair dismissal, depending on their status[22], with bogus self-employment used to exploit workers and drive down pay and standards across the board. It means strengthening workers’ collective rights through removing the restrictions on trade union activity so unions can support and empower working people. It also means the end of the appalling practice of ‘fire and rehire’, where workers are issued redundancy notices and then offered new contracts on worse pay and conditions. These bully-boy tactics are wrong: they punish good employers, hit working people hard and harm our economy[23]. Tackling these kind of challenges is central to the work being undertaken by Labour and our affiliated trade unions in the Power in the Workplace Task Force

It's from here:

labour.org.uk/stronger-together/britain-2030/

Has anyone else read it? It may not be the 'socialist dream' but it's better than what the tories have in store for the UK.

They are actually producing goals (which seem to be backed by plans) reasonably frequently now Maisie. However, our main news sources have become Conservative compliant and the LP is not very good at social media, so little becomes general knowledge.

Fewer than a million voters are members of a political party and those that are tend towards more "extreme" views and by that I mean to the right or the left but it's the many millions with a vote who actually decide which party gets to govern. That's why party members having a say in who becomes leader tends to get it wrong. Corbyn was popular with LP members but extremely unpopular with the majority of voters, Boris and Truss are both popular with the Conservative party members but if Truss becomes PM I cannot see her winning a GE, unless of course, a far right government is seen as a safer option than a LP one. The left of the LP party need to get in line or start a new party. KP may not be seen as dynamic but I think the centre see him as honest and safe.

GrannyGravy13

DaisyAnne please do not lump all Conservative voters/party members together.

I know many including family members who have cancelled their membership. I know many who cannot vote for the party in the next GE unless there is a change in its direction to the far right

We are not all part of the ERG fan club.

I do so agree with you on this important point GrannyGravy13
I think the current trend to denigrate voters of a political party is a shameful one.Nobody knows what world events will happen and how a government or a PM will act once in power.
All they can go on is which party they think will do best at a general election.
I have friends of all political persuasions and they are all good people.

Very good comments foxie48

foxie48

Fewer than a million voters are members of a political party and those that are tend towards more "extreme" views and by that I mean to the right or the left but it's the many millions with a vote who actually decide which party gets to govern. That's why party members having a say in who becomes leader tends to get it wrong. Corbyn was popular with LP members but extremely unpopular with the majority of voters, Boris and Truss are both popular with the Conservative party members but if Truss becomes PM I cannot see her winning a GE, unless of course, a far right government is seen as a safer option than a LP one. The left of the LP party need to get in line or start a new party. KP may not be seen as dynamic but I think the centre see him as honest and safe.

True but unfortunately the number of paying members matters to the functioning of the LP and at the moment it's on the verge of bankruptcy. It would be nice to have one party that wasn't dependant on private companies and rich individuals.
Can the Kier supporters please explain how he can be regarded as honest and principled? He made promises before he was elected leader and has broken them. No matter what he promises in a GE I'd struggle to believe he would really do it.

Glorianny

foxie48

Fewer than a million voters are members of a political party and those that are tend towards more "extreme" views and by that I mean to the right or the left but it's the many millions with a vote who actually decide which party gets to govern. That's why party members having a say in who becomes leader tends to get it wrong. Corbyn was popular with LP members but extremely unpopular with the majority of voters, Boris and Truss are both popular with the Conservative party members but if Truss becomes PM I cannot see her winning a GE, unless of course, a far right government is seen as a safer option than a LP one. The left of the LP party need to get in line or start a new party. KP may not be seen as dynamic but I think the centre see him as honest and safe.

True but unfortunately the number of paying members matters to the functioning of the LP and at the moment it's on the verge of bankruptcy. It would be nice to have one party that wasn't dependant on private companies and rich individuals.
Can the Kier supporters please explain how he can be regarded as honest and principled? He made promises before he was elected leader and has broken them. No matter what he promises in a GE I'd struggle to believe he would really do it.

If he was the best leader the world has ever seen you’d struggle to support him Glorianny, because he is a realist and you are an idealist. Before becoming the leader of a party you don’t fully appreciate the challenges ahead of you, who could possibly do that? He hasn’t changed, his principles are exactly the same, but his knowledge has increased and he’s now understood what needs to be done to make Labour electable again. He’s winning over the electorate at the expense of the left of the party. Most of us would rather see the party in power albeit with some compromises.

I’ve asked twice now, no answer, but I want to know why you think what Labour have achieved in Wales won’t be the model for the UK. None of your fears have come to fruition here, have they?

So instead of explaining why he is honest and trustworthy you tell me he really isn't but that's OK because he might win an election. That explains a lot.
Personally I would like to see someone who really works to unite the LP then there might be a chance of winning an election. Anyone asked the Red Wall what they think of Starmer?
Oh and a donkey could win over any electorate subjected to the Tories leadership battle.

Prentice

GrannyGravy13

DaisyAnne please do not lump all Conservative voters/party members together.

I know many including family members who have cancelled their membership. I know many who cannot vote for the party in the next GE unless there is a change in its direction to the far right

We are not all part of the ERG fan club.

I do so agree with you on this important point GrannyGravy13
I think the current trend to denigrate voters of a political party is a shameful one.Nobody knows what world events will happen and how a government or a PM will act once in power.
All they can go on is which party they think will do best at a general election.
I have friends of all political persuasions and they are all good people.

Prentice I will repeat my reply to GrannyGravy's post. (It looks like you missed it).

If they voted for this government, they lumped themselves together, GrannyGravy, I didn't. They gave power to the ERG. No one else did.

We need to wait and see what happens at the next election. The damage has been done by the voting at the last one.

The way the government behaved was not because of "world events". It was because of the beliefs of a minority of those in power.

Ignorance of the law is no defence for breaking that law. This rule maintains an effective and fair legal system. Can you imagine how the law would work if ignorant opinions were allowed to usurp knowledgeable law? In the same way, if you want effective democracy you cannot accept that voter ignorance is an excuse for undemocratic governance.

Glorianny

So instead of explaining why he is honest and trustworthy you tell me he really isn't but that's OK because he might win an election. That explains a lot.
Personally I would like to see someone who really works to unite the LP then there might be a chance of winning an election. Anyone asked the Red Wall what they think of Starmer?
Oh and a donkey could win over any electorate subjected to the Tories leadership battle.

I didn’t say that. He’s not dishonest, he hasn’t lied, he has compromised, but your interpretation is purist not pragmatic. The majority of people are able to see why he has had to make compromises. I’m am fed up with the obsession with the man rather than the way forward. He is the butt of your angst, but nobody at all could do the job you’re wanting them to do, it’s impossible. For that reason the truth is that nobody will unite the Labour Party. Answer me on Wales please.

Just a thought, Prentice and GrannyGravy. Would you say those who put and kept the German government in power from 1933 - 1945 bore no responsibility? Obviously it varies. Those, like GG13 relatives who left the party, mitigated their responsibility. Those who knew exactly what was going on were most responsible - as would be the current members of our government.

There is a moral burden on citizens if you wish to continue democracy.

Casdon

Glorianny

So instead of explaining why he is honest and trustworthy you tell me he really isn't but that's OK because he might win an election. That explains a lot.
Personally I would like to see someone who really works to unite the LP then there might be a chance of winning an election. Anyone asked the Red Wall what they think of Starmer?
Oh and a donkey could win over any electorate subjected to the Tories leadership battle.

I didn’t say that. He’s not dishonest, he hasn’t lied, he has compromised, but your interpretation is purist not pragmatic. The majority of people are able to see why he has had to make compromises. I’m am fed up with the obsession with the man rather than the way forward. He is the butt of your angst, but nobody at all could do the job you’re wanting them to do, it’s impossible. For that reason the truth is that nobody will unite the Labour Party. Answer me on Wales please.

Don't know much about Wales so I'm sorry why would I comment? I don't live there or anywhere near there. Is it polite to demand answers?
I'm quite interested in Scotland if you have a question about that.

The answer I will give about Wales is that Mark Drakeford is more left wing than Keir Starmer. He also appears more likeable and less controlling. I have said before I would prefer him to lead the English Labour party.

Starmer is not your bread and circuses politician; some find that a point to attack. I expect it is both a plus and a drawback. Those who know little about the execution of policy do seem to want an entertainer rather than someone who can run an effective government along the known principles of the party in power. Simple promises are for two year olds so I imagine he would rather not make them. As some of our citizens behave like two year olds so he may have to from time to time.

What businesses and most sane people want to know is "will his government work democratically" and "is his government capable of carrying out the effective management of the country". Both these questions have come to the fore because of lack of belief in democracy shown by the current government, and their totally ineffectual management. It is the first time in my life-time of voting I have had to assume that I need to ask the first question, so far down has this government taken us.

The extreme level of capitalism the current government have pushed on us without anyone's actual vote is not democracy. The level of socialism those on the far-left would have us follow is not democracy. Democracy and the success of the West has come about through balance. It seems to me that Starmer recognises this fact.

DaisyAnne

Just a thought, Prentice and GrannyGravy. Would you say those who put and kept the German government in power from 1933 - 1945 bore no responsibility? Obviously it varies. Those, like GG13 relatives who left the party, mitigated their responsibility. Those who knew exactly what was going on were most responsible - as would be the current members of our government.

There is a moral burden on citizens if you wish to continue democracy.

Going by your logic, I and many thousands of mothers/fathers/wives/husbands should blame the electorate who voted in Tony Blair, who subsequently sent our Armed Forces into an illegal war in Iraq, many never to return, many returned injured both mentally and physically.

Fortunately I am intelligent enough to realise that any blame is fairly on Mr.Blair.

The same applies to all those who put their X’s on a ballot paper, after that the decisions are made by politicians, they are the ones who should be held accountable…

GrannyGravy13

DaisyAnne

Just a thought, Prentice and GrannyGravy. Would you say those who put and kept the German government in power from 1933 - 1945 bore no responsibility? Obviously it varies. Those, like GG13 relatives who left the party, mitigated their responsibility. Those who knew exactly what was going on were most responsible - as would be the current members of our government.

There is a moral burden on citizens if you wish to continue democracy.

Going by your logic, I and many thousands of mothers/fathers/wives/husbands should blame the electorate who voted in Tony Blair, who subsequently sent our Armed Forces into an illegal war in Iraq, many never to return, many returned injured both mentally and physically.

Fortunately I am intelligent enough to realise that any blame is fairly on Mr.Blair.

The same applies to all those who put their X’s on a ballot paper, after that the decisions are made by politicians, they are the ones who should be held accountable…

I don't think Tony Blair stood up and said he would send the armed forces into Iraq before we all voted - did he? If he did, and we knew it was illegal then yes, those who voted for him become complicit. Many who voted him in stood up for their principles and showed how they felt about his choice in this instance.

We did know what this government stood for and the character of the clown leading it. We knew how incompetent he was too. Voting for that was voting with that knowledge therefore those voters are partly complicit.