Tavistock Gender Clinic to close - it failed vulnerable under-18s

Thanks for the link Chewbacca

Critically, she has also called for the appropriate services to monitor the long-term outcome of these patients. Arguably the most shocking part of GIDS was that, despite its supposedly pioneering approach in this brave new world of gender identity, it failed to keep accurate records of what happened to all these children it treated once they grew up.

The full impact of the GIDS experiment on their lives is yet to be known.

and to their shame there are posters who couldn't care less about this lack of due care, just as long as the ideology prospers.

Agree with your post Chewbacca. I think some have a very personal interest in this and want to justify actions. To multilate or encourage vulnerable people into a life changing situation is criminal.
As for comparing it to piercings and tattoos and wars, no comparison, I dislike all three personally. Sometimes as in Ukraine, were the innocent supposed to lie under the tanks as oppressors drove through their country or defend? If madmen are in power you have no alternative.

Should we prevent 20 year olds from going to war? Getting married? Having babies? Tattoos? Piercings?

Please can someone explain what this has to do with the gid clinic at the Tavistock being shut down for being unsafe? Are 20 year olds vulnerable pre pubescents? What relevance does it have?

Rosie51

^They don't care, Glorianny. Because the issue isn't about care for children at all. It about preventing care for children.^

Those on here saying they do, don't care that a lack of qualified medical intervention will cause many of those children to seek out dangerous, unregulated intervention. Just like banning abortion doesn't stop abortion. It just stops safe abortion.

It's the lack of decent medical care that has concerned people. The honing in on one aspect of a mental distress and not looking to see if there are other factors that are influencing it. Do you not care that children's bodies are being permanently altered and potentially damaged with life limiting conditions in the future? Osteoporosis is no joke, and the earlier the menopause the greater the risk of developing it. Put a girl into menopause at 20 and that's exactly what you're risking. Dr Cass has said there needs to holistic, clinically led treatment in the future. Obviously not what has been offered by the Tavistock, which is why she has ordered its closure. Unless of course you're asserting that she doesn't care about children's health and just wants to prevent care?

Imagining that closing one clinic will stop children doing things themselves to change the body they are dissatisfied with is just ridiculous. Children will undertake the changes they require (or think they require) in other ways.
Dr Cass may care about the medical care of children but she shows a distinct lack of understanding about the lengths some of them will go to in order to achieve the body they think should be theirs. All she has done is remove a service which may not have been perfect but provided much needed help for some. Now it has gone.
Wouldn't it be nice if those posting about the harm done to children by the Tavistock were equally vociferous about the harm done by long waiting lists.

If medical treatment is shown to be inadequate or dangerous we hopefully stop doing it, or at the very least are clear about the risks, whether people are at the same time getting tattoos or going to war doesnt affect the decision. If tomorrow it was discovered that tattoos impacted on vision and brain development I would expect there to be some societal response.

May not have been perfect? The safeguarding lead took them to court and won her tribunal because of her concerns, is this the kind of crap support you think children with gender dysphoria should receive. I think children with those needs deserve better than that.

Glorianny do you not care about the long term health risks children have been exposed to, many of them unnecessarily?

May not have been perfect my goodness that is the most ridiculous understatement I've seen in a while. It has been abysmal treatment for many, inadequate for others, and possibly OK for a few.

Still waiting for GagaJo to confirm exactly who the Tavistock was putting on puberty blockers, because it sure wasn't her suggested 20 year old woman who could have opted to be married, a mother with piercings and tattoos all over her body.

May not have been perfect?
Heaven help us, that's the understatement of the year!

Wouldn't it be nice if those posting about the harm done to children by the Tavistock were equally vociferous about the harm done by long waiting lists.
I think if you bother to read people are concerned about the long waiting lists for all children's needs. CAMHS is woefully underfunded and understaffed. Some of us have family directly affected by these shortcomings. That doesn't mean I want to accept harmful care (bit of an oxymoron there!) in preference to delayed care.

Don't start demanding Rosie51, because that will do (what I suspect is the intention anyway), of getting rid of those that have an alternate viewpoint. Let's just make it clear. No one can demand answers from anyone else in these forums.

Still waiting for GagaJo to confirm

Rosie51

Well for a start a 20 year old won't be having any need of puberty blockers will she? Nobody is saying a 20 year old shouldn't have absolute body autonomy are they? We're talking about prepubescent children having their natural puberty blocked. Puberty blockers are only necessary for children and adolescents. Who have the Tavistock been prescribing them to?

Direct quote from you at 11.29 Rosie51.

'Do you not care that children's bodies are being permanently altered and potentially damaged with life limiting conditions in the future? Osteoporosis is no joke, and the earlier the menopause the greater the risk of developing it. Put a girl into menopause at 20 and that's exactly what you're risking.'

My point is, a 20 year old woman can make whatever choices she likes. She is an adult.

Chewbacca

^Should we prevent 20 year olds from going to war? Getting married? Having babies? Tattoos? Piercings?^

Please can someone explain what this has to do with the gid clinic at the Tavistock being shut down for being unsafe? Are 20 year olds vulnerable pre pubescents? What relevance does it have?

Not my reference. I was responding to Rosie51 discussing 20 year old '*girls*' at 11.29.

GagaJo

Don't start demanding Rosie51, because that will do (what I suspect is the intention anyway), of getting rid of those that have an alternate viewpoint. Let's just make it clear. No one can demand answers from anyone else in these forums.

*Still waiting for GagaJo to confirm*

I wasn't demanding. And I don't appreciate your accusation.

You brought a 20 year old into the discussion. They would have no need of puberty blockers I'm sure you'd agree. I asked who you think the Tavistock have been putting on puberty blockers (if not children and adolescents)? Maybe you are unwilling or unable to give your thoughts?

See the quote of yours I used. If you didn't read it before, here it is again.

Rosie51 at 11.29 said: Put a girl into menopause at 20 and that's exactly what you're risking.

No idea why you're talking about 20 year old children. Because a 20 year old isn't a child.

GagaJo

No idea why you're talking about 20 year old children. Because a 20 year old isn't a child.

Nobody is talking about 20 year old children. In order to be in menopause at 20 you'd need to have blocked a girl's puberty and put her on testosterone from around 16.

You were the one who introduced children waiting 4 years, saying they could be 20 by the time of the first appointment. A 20 year old would have no need of puberty blockers. They are prescribed for children as young as 12. Did you not know this? A 20 year old would also be attending an adult clinic, not the children and adolescent one at the Tavistock. I don't think anyone has suggested stopping adults doing what they want to their own bodies?
The Tavistock put children on puberty blockers and then most of them progressed onto cross sex hormones.

One thing to note is the Tavistock hasn't closed today, it has to close by next Spring when the replacement clinics will be up and running. It is to be hoped they will widen their treatment plans of the children they will see until that time.

Yes none of us are concerned about waiting lists for children, we dont talk about it every day in our working lives

growstuff said I know two boys who successfully transitioned and are now leading happy lives.

Indeed, you do know two boys who have transitioned and are now boys presenting as girls.
That is not proof that all would be made equally happy by doing the same.

The long waiting list for appointments is terrible, however that doesn't mean the end result of waiting should be swift prescription of hormone medication, while contributing factors are ignored.

No-one who is pleased by the Tavistock's closure was actually hoping for its closure, I don't think.
We were hoping for its improvement.
It is the NHS which has decided that's the best way forward, based on the Cass report.

We were hoping for its improvement.
It is the NHS which has decided that's the best way forward, based on the Cass report.

Exactly! Most of us just wanted them to widen the treatment plans, explore what was causing the dysphoria, not jump straight in with affirming transition as the 'cure'. As Kiera Bell and others have found out, it wasn't transition they needed but mindful counselling. Puberty blockers and cross sex hormones should be the last treatment not the first. The lack of data, record keeping and follow up on the effects of these treatments is abysmal.
The setting up of two new clinics is probably the best way forward since the Tavistock is now so tainted. Two clinics should see a reduction in waiting times for children to access the help they need.

And on a lighter note.

grahamlinehan.substack.com/p/stonewall-withdraw-from-stonewall?r=k9z5j&s=r&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=email

https://www.gransnet.com/uploads/talk/202207/medium-437370-screenshot-20220729-132939.png https://www.gransnet.com/uploads/talk/202207/medium-83144-screenshot-20220729-132959.png

The tweets are from Sinead Watson, a young woman from the Glasgow area who detransitioned a few years ago.

This is trailer for a forthcoming video - The Detransition Diaries.

m.youtube.com/watch?v=NVhUoiXGWx8

FarNorth

growstuff said I know two boys who successfully transitioned and are now leading happy lives.

Indeed, you do know two boys who have transitioned and are now boys presenting as girls.
That is not proof that all would be made equally happy by doing the same.

The long waiting list for appointments is terrible, however that doesn't mean the end result of waiting should be swift prescription of hormone medication, while contributing factors are ignored.

No-one who is pleased by the Tavistock's closure was actually hoping for its closure, I don't think.
We were hoping for its improvement.
It is the NHS which has decided that's the best way forward, based on the Cass report.

No FarNorth they are girls after being born as boys. One of them is a successful professional female singer. I looked on her Wiki page and there's no indication that she hasn't always been female, although I expect some malicious busybody could expose her. Why on earth does it matter to you how individuals live their lives? It's nobody else's business. They choose to think of themselves as females and that's what they are.

Gagajo said My point is, a 20 year old woman can make whatever choices she likes. She is an adult

Like my daughter’s 20yo friend who was anorexic and starving herself to death. Funnily enough, the NHS stepped in and prevented that, despite her determined efforts. And thank god for that, because she’s now a happy, healthy young woman who is loving her life.

Chewbacca

^In that case, there are going to be some really disturbed people growing up.^

Yes there will, thanks to Tavistock gids and their rush to put children on puberty blockers. All those children put on life altering drugs, at a time when they didn't know what they were embarking on and trusted the Tavistock to care for them now and into their future. They were failed when the doctors, social workers, ancillary staff who raised their concerns that it was an unsafe environment for children, were ignored and over ridden.

I think, eventually, there will have to be a full scale review into this place.

We wouldn't sterilise children and make them unable to have children, so it's bizarre that drugs are being given to children, that may have the same outcome.?

Hopefully, these replacement clinics will be holistic, and be able to assess what the actual problem is.