Transphobic Bullying

As I said, I have left the discussion about manipulative posting styles, as it is boring for others and goes round in circles.

I was asking what you would do about transphobic bullying, given that you are taking what your daughters have said with a pinch of salt? You have said that you are going to take it up with the Head, which seems to me a good idea, but on a broader level, what do you think can be done?

Not all parents agree that the issues are about inclusivity, and many feel that acceptance of transpeople does not have to include a belief that TWAW. Do you believe that schools have a right to impose beliefs on parents (or the right to express those beliefs in the hearing of children), and should they be telling children that their parents' beliefs are wrong?

Doodledog

I didn't suggest that they were ?.

I was picking up on the way you use language to claim the moral high ground, as you did with the 'your perception is not my reality' comment. As I said, you can accept transpeople without buying into the Stonewall agenda that TWAW. It is not the case that those who criticise the ideas behind gender politics don't 'accept' transpeople, and it is not ok to suggest otherwise. 'Some people' is a phrase I pick up on frequently, as it is usually used as shorthand for so-called gender-critical people on these threads, but that can be denied if it gets awkward, which I suspect is about to happen.

Similarly, saying that my views are a perception, and yours are reality is dismissive. Telling people that they are wrong to feel as they do is gaslighting (quite literally, actually - the woman in the play was constantly told that it was just a perception that the lights were being turned off, and the reality was that they weren't).

I am not trying to derail the thread, but I really object to this sort of thing, and not mentioning it means capitulating to it.

Here is another example

I have never said your views in general are a perception against my reality

I have said your views of what I am or think or how you believe I behave are a perception. Different thing entirely. My reality is, that I want a genuine discussion and I'm not doing those things.

So again, if you don't want things you say challenged don't say them.

And btw, were I gaslighting I would indeed assume myself an awful human and I would be booking myself straight back into mental health help.

What you believe is up to you but I'm not calling you out, you are doing it and this conversation stops when you stop trying to tell me who I am.

What is your view on trans acceptance being taught in schools VioletSky?
Do you think it should include telling pupils that people can change sex?
Do you think it should include accepting someone's statement of gender identity as being their actual sex in relation to single-sex changing rooms & toilets in schools?
Do you see that some/many pupils and parents will have legitimate concerns about those things?

Doodledog

As I said, I have left the discussion about manipulative posting styles, as it is boring for others and goes round in circles.

I was asking what you would do about transphobic bullying, given that you are taking what your daughters have said with a pinch of salt? You have said that you are going to take it up with the Head, which seems to me a good idea, but on a broader level, what do you think can be done?

Not all parents agree that the issues are about inclusivity, and many feel that acceptance of transpeople does not have to include a belief that TWAW. Do you believe that schools have a right to impose beliefs on parents (or the right to express those beliefs in the hearing of children), and should they be telling children that their parents' beliefs are wrong?

Brilliant, thank you I'll have a think and get back to you

The more I read this thread, which has drifted into whinging and complaining and the replies to those whinges, with more divertions into exchanges about posters themselves than about constructive and non-critical ways of explaining one poster's viewpoint to other posters and thus healing the divisions caused by aggressive social engineering campaigners, the more glad I am that I don't post very often. I'd be wasting my time flogging a dead horse.

dear Doodledog Keep up the good work and to FarNorth and others.. It's necessary. The trans lobby is massive and powerful. It still has the ear and obedience of the authorities.
I've seen you try to reason with Violetsky before and admire your patience. She will, so innocently, play every card in the pack.

doodledog

It's being investigated and I have done what I can but it is now the summer holidays and I have to wait to see the outcomes.

So, I previously posted a government article about transphobic and LGBTQ bullying.

Which mentioned the things that concerned me, which, well it backed up my thinking I hadn't previously read that one.

Which were that the type of bullying mentioned in the OP is known to the government and the roots of it seem to be within primarily:

1. Wider public opinion

2. Sexism

So I think this shows that gender norms must be challenged and working in a school I am definitely allowed to challenge gender norms due to the protection of the equality act. However children in secondary schools have quite rigid ideas of how people should look, what school bag is fashionable, what shoes and coat are acceptable etc and seem to stifle individuality a bit.

I genuinely don't know how to address that because I remember being at school and being ostracised for not owning a Fruit of the loom jumper. It's been going on a long time.

The belief that you can't change sex, I have been told is also protected under the equality act.

But that doesn't mean that children can't be kind and accepting towards each other, that doesnt mean it is acceptable to bully someone because you don't agree or understand them. That doesn't allow for using slurs or misgendering anyone, trans or not.

So I think education should probably take a balanced view, which we try to uphold in all things. If we study something like The Trail of Tears we would look at it from different sides and perspectives and allow children to make their own minds up.

So I think educating about what gender dysphoria is is the right thing to do, and educating about different beliefs held about that is the right thing to do too. Children should be allowed to make their own minds up, not told what to think or believe.

Yet all this is delicate. A person with gender dysphoria may be struggling with mental health and so may anyone who is LGBTQ. That may also be combined with SEN needs or other difficulties in life.

So all conversation needs to be done carefully and respectfully. Children need more awareness of being inclusive and the policies they are expected to follow.

Given that very little actual time would be spent on this subject, I've been told that only one lesson in secondary has been devoted to LGBTQ in a year.. I would question if schools are actually doing enough.

And that would put responsibility too much on how things are being discussed in the wider public.

After all that I'm not sure I've managed to answer at all or answered too much.

Treelover

dear Doodledog Keep up the good work and to FarNorth and others.. It's necessary. The trans lobby is massive and powerful. It still has the ear and obedience of the authorities.
I've seen you try to reason with Violetsky before and admire your patience. She will, so innocently, play every card in the pack.

Another unnecessary personal attack.

Really does say more about the person doing it than the person challenging it for anyone reading

Given what we have seen on this thread which weirdly ( far too naive) I didn't expect and didn't plan for.

Why does anyone think it is OK to use any means necessary to shut down a person whose opinion they dont agree with?

Can anyone here stand up and be 100% sure their opinion is the right one?

And even if you are willing to do so what justification is that for any type of bullying or harassment?

Because I don't believe there is any justification, I really don't

Why does anyone think it is OK to use any means necessary to shut down a person whose opinion they dont agree with?

VS I don’t know the answer.
I read posts and ask myself the same question. Why do posters try to shut a discussion down by flouncing off, or an announcement that they’re leaving because . . . or by using the “your perceptions” comments or by implying someone is lying or simply because someone disagrees with them?
Why do it?

Mollygo

Why does anyone think it is OK to use any means necessary to shut down a person whose opinion they dont agree with?

VS I don’t know the answer.
I read posts and ask myself the same question. Why do posters try to shut a discussion down by flouncing off, or an announcement that they’re leaving because . . . or by using the “your perceptions” comments or by implying someone is lying or simply because someone disagrees with them?
Why do it?

How would someone leaving a discussion shut it down? It just continues without them, if they don't like the discussion tactics

Your perceptions are your perceptions, not everyone agrees, especially if it is a perception about another person's motives

Implying a person is lying, glorriany and I are seperate people and you should sort that out with them

Children are very cruel, they’ll always find something to tease other children about. Some children can just take it on the chin and laugh it off. Others are totally destroyed by it.
I’m the mother of a gay child, senior school was difficult for him. After his first year, he told me how miserable he was because of other children, and one boy in particular who was a popular boy with the class, turned the class against him. He told me he’d thought of killing himself.
I didn’t go and speak to the school, because I didn’t think they could stop it.
So I changed his school, he did still have a few problems, which I spoke to his teacher about, and it was nipped in the bud.
It broke my heart when he told me how upset he was.
Changing his school was the best thing I ever did.

Being inclusive has never meant denying reality, until trans inclusion appeared.

No-one should be bullied.
That doesn't mean that every demand of trans ideology should be met.

Perhaps one cause of problems related to everything trans is that contradictory messages are being given.
VS you talk of challenging gender norms - great!
But then trans ideology says that a person's 'gender identity' depends on their likes & interests etc.
So a short-haired girl who plays football and loves cars is expected to be trans - and she may believe this herself - rather than just being a girl who likes those things.

I'm absolutely in favour of people not conforming to stereotypes .
I'm not in favour of people claiming to be the opposite sex from their real one.

Jennyluck

Children are very cruel, they’ll always find something to tease other children about. Some children can just take it on the chin and laugh it off. Others are totally destroyed by it.
I’m the mother of a gay child, senior school was difficult for him. After his first year, he told me how miserable he was because of other children, and one boy in particular who was a popular boy with the class, turned the class against him. He told me he’d thought of killing himself.
I didn’t go and speak to the school, because I didn’t think they could stop it.
So I changed his school, he did still have a few problems, which I spoke to his teacher about, and it was nipped in the bud.
It broke my heart when he told me how upset he was.
Changing his school was the best thing I ever did.

That's awful

I am so glad you were able to find him a better school.

FarNorth

Being inclusive has never meant denying reality, until trans inclusion appeared.

No-one should be bullied.
That doesn't mean that every demand of trans ideology should be met.

Perhaps one cause of problems related to everything trans is that contradictory messages are being given.
VS you talk of challenging gender norms - great!
But then trans ideology says that a person's 'gender identity' depends on their likes & interests etc.
So a short-haired girl who plays football and loves cars is expected to be trans - and she may believe this herself - rather than just being a girl who likes those things.

I'm absolutely in favour of people not conforming to stereotypes .
I'm not in favour of people claiming to be the opposite sex from their real one.

The way I have understood gender dysphoria, it is the feeling of being in the wrong body, so challenging gender norms may not fix that. And I'm starting to feel that we will be challenging gender norms for a long time to come no matter how hard we try

I never accused you of lying-RTP I mentioned strategies used by posters to attempt to close down discussions. If you feel any of those fit your modus operandi then that’s your choice.

Sorry, I was addressing VS post @ 13:15 just in case anyone didn’t understand that.

Doodledog
I think it’s your turn in the barrel ?

Ate you talking to me Mollygo?

I started this discussion and I'm still here.

Of you told me you were leaving this discussion because you were made to feel uncomfortable by it I would simply accept that and keep that in mind for future discussions so that people feel comfortable joining in.

I do prefer a discussion, not and echo chamber so I would hope everyone felt free to share their thoughts...

...on the topic, not in the form of personal attacks

I’ve never attacked you personally VS. Is that another accusation? I’ve simply contributed to this thread using knowledge and experience of two different aspects of bullying in reference to transgender. If you’d said you only want agreement with your perception. . .

Mollygo

I’ve never attacked you personally VS. Is that another accusation? I’ve simply contributed to this thread using knowledge and experience of two different aspects of bullying in reference to transgender. If you’d said you only want agreement with your perception. . .

Did I accuse you of personal attacks or did I respond to what you said by explaining why I might leave a thread and what I would hope for a thread I started.

There is nothing between the lines Mollygo and many of the difficulties are coming from people looking for intent or meaning that isn't there

VS
There is nothing between the lines Mollygo and many of the difficulties are coming from people looking for intent or meaning that isn't there
I do so agree, but reading through this thread, that isn’t apparent.

Well, as I said I will respond to comments that are untrue or unfair to me on a personal level.

I don't know how I could be expected to do otherwise

I'd rather we just returned to discussion though

In that case VS I hope you refrain from making any untrue or unfair comments about me.

How awful Jenny. I can still see my brother arriving home from secondary school having hobbled home with only one shoe on because another boy, had ground the heel of the football boot he was wearing into my brother's big toe.

It was because he was over weight and rubbish at sports. He is gay, but neither we or anyone else knew until several years later. Goodness knows what could have happened to him if he'd known he was.