Transphobic Bullying

Glorianny said -
The school simply tries to deal with a problem
In a way which will increase problems for the child later on.

Are you aware that the Cass Report found that 'social transition' is not beneficial for children?
[Dr Hilary Cass] observed that “social transition” is not a neutral act but a major psychosocial intervention that may affect whether a child’s gender distress disappears or becomes long-lasting

sex-matters.org/posts/updates/what-hilary-cass-needs-to-tell-schools/

doodledog

I'm going to be very honest and say I have read your comment but you have quoted a comment that is not very nice which makes it difficult to then share my thoughts.

Would you like to try again as I thought we had agreed to move past that?

Ì agree, eazybee

So we are straying away from topic again.

None of the children in the OP are trans so why are they being bullied with transgender slurs as opposed to other appearance based slurs?

I and government policy believe this could be because of the way trans issues are being discussed in wider society and that it also has strong roots in sexism.

As feminists raising our families in such a way that they are not constricted in any way by gender... this could put any child in the firing line.

The fact that it is addressed as such in government policy is a very clear warning sign

I have answered numerous times.

That has roots in sexism too, something every feminist would be concerned about.

I definitely do not, by word or deed, want to encourage any form of sexism

I'm certainly concerned about it.
Trans ideology promotes sexism by its focus on stereotypes and that has given rise to the bullying behaviour you described VS.
While schools and general society continue to promote that focus, sexism will increase - in my view .

Nevertheless, the bullying should be tackled.

Elegran

Yes, Doodledog It is ironic that almost all trans people just want to blend in and be invisible, but the robust campaigning has made them stand out centre stage in the spotlight - the most uncomfortable and vulnerable place of all, far more so than their pre-campaign position.

Indeed. And if someone's first encounter with a transperson is at school, and in circumstances where nothing can be questioned without sanctions, it is not likely to move them towards genuine acceptance of others that they meet.

If, OTOH, their trans status (if they go on to live a trans life) is just a part of who they are, then future feelings towards transpeople are likely to be more positive than at present.

I disagree, we don't know. What are these gender norms that are not being conformed too?

That's what a lot of us have been saying Doodledog. No one 'group' should be singled out when it comes to talking about and dealing with bullying. Doing so elevates them and can have the undesired effect of putting the spotlight on them, resulting in more and not less victimisation.

Just as counterproductive is where the bully is using their trans status so that those in a position to do so are unable/unwilling to intervene, for fear of being labelled transphobic.

I agree Elegran it is indeed ironic and must be heartbreaking for those who simply wanted to get on with their lives without all of this publicity, much of which is negative.

And yes, FN. I couldn't agree more.

FarNorth is it that one sided?

Where would a trans slur originate?

Gosh I once saw "c**k in a frock" here on gransnet, imagine how bad it is on twitter and places teens are actually exposed too

Typing that makes me all types of uncomfortable. Awful language

why are they being bullied with transgender slurs this has addressed several times. Trans is the 'latest thing'. It's all over the media and social media.

We've had the first TW Barbie, so children aren't simply getting this from their parents. Even if it is being discussed at home, whose to say that because a child chooses transgender slurs to bully and intimidate another child, it's because their parents are transphobic and/or are not teaching their children inclusivity?

That's what a lot of us have been saying Doodledog. No one 'group' should be singled out when it comes to talking about and dealing with bullying. Doing so elevates them and can have the undesired effect of putting the spotlight on them, resulting in more and not less victimisation.

Yes, I said in my post that others had said this too - I was responding to VS's post, which concentrated on gender dysphoria, as I had seen the figures showing how tiny a percentage of children have the condition. By my reckoning, it works out as roughly one in 24,000 children, which is one child for every twelve large secondary schools.

The fact that there are lessons and policies in place that affect all children for a condition that affects 1 in 24000 children puts it all into perspective, and shows the power of the trans lobby.

Those figures are for gender dysphoria, not other reasons for children wanting to change gender, incidentally. Gender dysphoria is something that is often mentioned on here, and VS mentioned it in her post, as did Glorianna recently upthread, however, which is why I looked up the figures.

Smileless2012

^why are they being bullied with transgender slurs^ this has addressed several times. Trans is the 'latest thing'. It's all over the media and social media.

We've had the first TW Barbie, so children aren't simply getting this from their parents. Even if it is being discussed at home, whose to say that because a child chooses transgender slurs to bully and intimidate another child, it's because their parents are transphobic and/or are not teaching their children inclusivity?

Exactly what I've been getting at!

Thank you

So do you think discussing transgender issues more responsibly in the media would help? I think it would.

I also think more education on LGBTQ, the fact that gender and sexuality are seperate, he fact that gender norms are outdated would help so that any teen can be their authentic selves without fear.

I also think that a level of acceptance that trans people are only set apart from the rest of society by gender dysphoria would help. Like any demographic, there will be those who are not good people but in the majority, they are. Just like the rest of us

Yes, those figures do show the power of the trans lobby Doodledog 1 in 24,000 . Of course the 1 is as important as the other 23,999 but lessons and policies that affect all children do seem disproportionate.

I'm afraid we do need seperate ways to deal with different types of bullying. Because there is generally a root cause as the government policy acknowledges and the outcomes my be different.

Like I have said, a child without glasses isn't bullied with slurs against glasses wearers.

We also need to look at the different mental health impacts.

A child with SEN needs would already struggle in certain ways and adding bullying on top might cause different outcomes

A trans child will already be struggling with gender dysphoria and adding bullying on top may cause different outcomes

A child who is being bullied at home being bullied at school may cause different outcomes

It relates very strongly to ACEs (adverse childhood experiences) and the mental and physical issues tied to the amount of ACEs a child experiences

The NHS has lot of resources on what ACEs are if anyone would like to explore that. It's actually very interesting

ACEs and also Attachment

I still don't understand what these gender norms that keep being mentioned are. Can someone please enlighten me?

I agree that responsible discussion of transgender issues in the media would help and that a much needed responsible attitude from TRA's and Stonewall would also be helpful.

I've acknowledged my own responsibility Smileless to discuss issues carefully.

I don't really have any dealings with stonewall tbh so rarely comment on them. I've understood some of the issues brought up in regards to them

Argh my AC are trying to keep up with this discussion with me and im trying to listen to them too. I'm going to suggest Mariocart instead for a bit.

I don't agree that we need separate ways of dealing with different types of bullying, but I do think that when it comes to dealing with the affect being bullied has had on the victim, one size doesn't fit all and it is then that the different types of bullying should be considered.

The question of changing rooms and toilets is often ignored or dismissed as foolish.
It is actually important.

Thinking back to my schooldays, I would have been very upset and resentful if one, or more, boys was using the girls' facilities.
If that is part of 'just getting on with their lives' it's never going to be accepted by all.

The young women who had to share a changing room with Lia Thomas (famous transwoman swimmer) complained because his "biologically male genitalia were sometimes exposed" and he was "still attracted to women" i.e. getting an obvious hard-on around them.
They were told they were transphobic.

In my view there will never be 'trans acceptance' if it has to involve having single-sex privacy invaded.
It should involve trans people's acceptance of the reality of their physical sex and the provision of separate facilities so that everyone has privacy.

I think more education on LGBTQ, the fact that gender and sexuality are separate…”

I think that more education on the fact that LGB and TQ are separate would be a good starting point.

Upthread a poster made a comment on LGBTQ when really she just meant TQ+

Put together like that it just means people who are not conventionally heterosexual.

The issues are not the same.

VioletSky

I've acknowledged my own responsibility Smileless to discuss issues carefully.

I don't really have any dealings with stonewall tbh so rarely comment on them. I've understood some of the issues brought up in regards to them

If you have been on any training days on the subject at your workplace the odds are that they will have had Stonewall input. A lot of the phrases you use come from their literature.

I would also suggest that the fact that there is a government policy for something doesn't necessarily mean that it is being dealt with in the best way. The government takes (or took, at any rate) a lot of advice from Stonewall, too.

I caught a bit of Eastenders last night, and there is a trans character in there now. I'm not 100% sure but I think that Felix is someone with a female alter ego who is a drag queen. I'm also not sure whether this is necessarily the best way to normalise transpeople, but the character of Hayley in Coronation Street did that very well in the 90s. Characters in mainstream programmes are very influential, so might go some way to prevent bullying. Personally, I think that that sort of thing would be more useful than using schools as a means of promulgating a doctrine. Parents don't like being preached at, and as has been said, children are very keen on fairness and resent what they see as favouritism.

it works out as roughly one in 24,000 children, which is one child for every twelve large secondary schools.
So, if my sums are right, we'd expect a maximum of 1/12 or 9% of teachers to say they have a trans pupil in their classes.

Yet 87% of secondary teachers in England say they have at least one trans pupil, while it is 55% of all teachers in England .

www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/trans-schools-students-research-england-b2025994.html

My point being, I don't believe all these 'trans' pupils have gender dysphoria.

This tread moves so quickly!

I agree that TQ needs to come out of LGBTQ, Lathyrus. Apart from the fact that a lot of gay people (particularly lesbians) are very resentful of the bullying they get from TRAs, it doesn't help the confusion between issues of sexuality and those of transpeople, which are still widespread.

I also agree about single sex spaces, FN. I don't know what the answer is regarding transwomen who are still intact males but I do agree that women need to have the safety of reliable single sex spaces.