Transphobic Bullying

Is it really inflicting my standards on anyone to say someone is simply wrong? If someone said the word antidisestablishmentarianism was still in common use would I be bullying if I said it wasn't?
I don't expect you to use the word, I don't expect you to like it. I accept you may find it offensive. What that has to do with if it is still a word which is seen as "the greatest insult" I have no idea.

Sadly you can’t discuss or even, from superior knowledge, point out that something is simply wrong, but have to make it personal and accompany your wisdom with sneers and name calling.

You’re a poor advocate for the people you purport to represent.

Glorianny

Is it really inflicting my standards on anyone to say someone is simply wrong? If someone said the word antidisestablishmentarianism was still in common use would I be bullying if I said it wasn't?
I don't expect you to use the word, I don't expect you to like it. I accept you may find it offensive. What that has to do with if it is still a word which is seen as "the greatest insult" I have no idea.

Who said the word is not in common use? Not me, so your antidisestablishmentarianism analogy doesn't hold up.

I said that it was seen as the greatest insult, which it is, and is why people have felt the need to reclaim it. And yes, of course its power lies in fear of female sexuality.

You can expect me to like it, to dislike it, to use it or not to use it, but why you care, I have no idea.

I will not use it, or other words that I am aware may cause offence in a public forum, however. I wouldn't use blasphemous terms either. YMMV, of course (and clearly does).

Glorianny

By the way all of you gender critical feminists might like to have a look at reclaiming the word, its origins and why some young women see it as a powerful force in feminism. Just Google reclaiming the word cunt. There's loads of stuff.

What has where the word come from or who uses it to do with your desire to rubbish the opinions of those who find it offensive?
We are both entitled to our own opinion-that’s not bullying. Rubbishing someone else’s opinion is bullying and therefore even less acceptable than the word itself. I personally don’t know any young women who use that word, and certainly none who would use it in front of me, knowing I find it offensive.

It’s a bit ironic that the original post was about how we should be looking at ways of stopping people from using words that other people find offensive.

And then a poster that supports the OP deliberately makes a point of using a word that other posters have said they find offensive.

Obviously only some approved people should have their sensibilities taken into account.

So you can be reprimanded for calling someone he if they don’t want you to but can’t object when someone calls you c*
Because they are reclaiming it for themselves that gives them the right to call you by it even if you object. But it would be really offensive for you to do that to them but not for them to do that to you because……..

Dear oh dear. Down the rabbit hole??

Double standards agogo, as ever, Lathyrus.

Anyway.

After that attempt to Divert, Attack, and Reverse Victim and Offender, can we get back to the point?

Some words have more power than others, as we can see.

Children (like some adults) will use words for their shock value, and if adults give words about transpeople power they will be used in that way.

Children watch adults sneering at others, belittling them and trying to score points, and it is this that they copy, not overheard conversations between their parents.

Oh dear

Gloriany and I are different people and there things we do agree on and thinks we don't agree on... but seem to be able to muddle along without a problem

It seems to take at least 2 to turn a discussion into an argument instead, that's down to individual personal responsibility

If anyone can understand a word of that anyway

VioletSky

If anyone can understand a word of that anyway

Not really - it's late.

Are you distancing yourself from Glorianna? Who are the two to start an argument, and whose personal responsibility is what?

No I'm not distancing, just acknowledging that, when it comes to opinion there isnt necessarily any strength in groups. Discussion isn't democracy, I am not being "voted" wrong. It doesn't work like that.

We are all discussing this as individuals...

I was addressing what looked like a suggestion that gloriany is somehow detracting from the topic under discussion by supporting it yet not engaging in a way other (individuals) approve of.

I don't think that's the case at all and respectfully I hope everyone would agree.

If the subject didn't have some merit we wouldn't still be discussing it anyway

I’m still not sure what you are saying really, or why you think anyone would think the last couple of pages are about you, or who you are accusing of starting an argument (?) but as I say, it’s late, so it’s probably me being dim.

I’m going to try (again) to get some sleep now.

Don't think anything is about me or particularly want anything to be about me

Which is hard when people treat you like a TRA (or whatever it is) spokesperson who must or should have all the answers... and you are actually just a wobbly TA with hilarious amounts of children and cats.

I know that feeling

Night, sleep well

Maybe if trans slurs are ‘reclaimed’ it will be decided that they are less offensive, too?

My guess is that if that happens then children will move on to something else though. They want to offend - that is the point of what they are doing, and as they see adults being offensive in their attempts to gain group status they do likewise. It is not the ‘transness’ of the terms they use that is important- it is their power to shock. This explains why the words are used against the ‘wrong’ targets - it doesn’t matter if they are trans or not, as it is the power of the words that counts.

Children’s opportunities to gain status with peers are limited. They don’t earn money. They can’t gain status from ‘marrying well’. They can’t even wear what they like and get status from flashing labels. Other than from sport, being top of the class (which is only an option for very few) pretty much the only way is to get status by putting others down, which I think is a much greater driver to bullying than fear, unless it is fear of having low status - of being at the bottom of the heap.

Maybe a solution is to find ways to give them opportunities to get status in other, more positive ways? It’s a difficult path to tread though, as ascribed status won’t have the same value as earned, and anything that gives status to one person or group removes it from another. It would take a lot of imagination to find ways in which all children in a class could be best at ‘something’ and not appear to be handing out achievements like Smarties.

I accidentally clicked 'save' instead of 'quote' on this thread, and ever since it defaults to a page half way through. Does anyone know how to cancel it, please? I've done this before, and it's annoying.

I truly don't understand why society at large seems to need a scapegoat.

We have had, as mentioned, racism, homophobia, attacks on Muslims and now transphobia

Every time a majority of innocent, every day people trying to live their lives caught in the crossfire.

And young minds influenced towards more narrow views where individuality is being suppressed and something like gender norms actually being reinforced and the world becoming more sexist.

What will society turn on next?

Will it be religion or could women end up losing our right to choose what happens with our own bodies as we have seen in the US?

I really think we need to stop as a society and it breaks my heart a bit

I don’t think you’re alone in being concerned about what’s happening in the world. The sexist attacks on women and girls because of manipulation of the truth have made things worse.
Your example from the OP
One girl who uses a cubicle to change instead of the communal area had frequent banging on the door and shouting that she was hiding a (think rude word for penis). She is just shy.. probably arose because of the idea that boys/men can now claim they are girls/women and have the right to female spaces. Why else would the idea have arisen?
I accept I’ll now probably be flooded with accounts of “how this happened before the current events” but while there might have been comments about wanting privacy, there was unlikely to have been accusations of being male.

Sorry Mollygo

But even were the child trans, they were in a seperate private cubicle and no concern to anyone else

Sorry Doodledog can't help you out with that but did want to say that your post @ 07.30 is excellent.

As you say, the reclaiming of trans slurs would lessen their impact and children, adults too I guess, will find something else to take their place.

That doesn't mean that there wont be anyone who doesn't continue to be offended. Re claiming the 'c' word hasn't stopped everyone from finding it offensive. One of our lovely girls, our next door neighbours uses it, I've asked her not to because I find it offensive, so if she occasionally lets the word slip, she apologises.

I don't think people are grasping what reclaiming of words means..

I'll see if I can find something that explains it

That's a very good point Mollygo. Knowing that a boy/man can claim the right to access and use what have always been women's spaces certainly raises the question that if not for that, would that particular slur had been used against this poor girl.

I am absolutely certain that I understand what 'reclaiming' means. Why do you think that others don't?

VioletSky

Sorry Mollygo

But even were the child trans, they were in a seperate private cubicle and no concern to anyone else.
Exactly my point! No concern to anyone else. Private changing rooms are exactly that.

But you didn’t say the bangs on the door were because she was using a private cubicle, you said she was accused of having a penis.
Now why would that be do you think?

I think you'll find that when there's disagreement it isn't necessarily due to a lack of understanding, and in my experience seldom is.