Transphobic Bullying

the writing off of women's fears as 'hysterical' is rooted in misogony I agree Doodledog.

Yes Galaxy to encourage reinforcing gender by saying clothes toys etc have anything to do with being a man or a woman (is) deeply damaging.

Doodledog

I think that the desire to transition is rooted in sexism - ie the feeling of being 'in the wrong body', or that if someone feels more comfortable with what have become the 'gender norms' of the opposite sex from their own that must mean that they should be the opposite sex from their own.

I agree that having men in female spaces is a perfectly rational fear, and that the writing off of women's fears as 'hysterical' is rooted in misogyny.

OK I'm jut acknowledging that I have read this and you already know I don't agree with that

One day for sure we will know if it is a chicken or egg issue but at present, it's just an issue people are suffering with

Doodledog

VioletSky

Galaxy

The sexism is as I have described, a regressive problem has been created by talking about being a woman or a man linked to clothes make up etc. Its going to take forever to undo.

It is, because having gender dysphoria and the feeling of being born into the wrong body... many children will try to express that in line with popular ways of doing so

So children who are not conforming to gender norms being bullied with transphobic slurs shows a really clear lack of any understanding and has strong roots in sexism

But something like 0.004% of children have gender dysphoria (as outlined upthread), or are you ignoring that inconvenient truth too?

I am not saying that those children are not important, but they need to be dealt with in a very specialised way, not by mainstream policies that are written for all children.

So some schools have fewer children than that who are of different racial heritage Doodledog are you suggesting that it isn't necessary to teach those children about racial equality? Aren't they in fact the very children who need to learn about it before they go out into the wider world? And why on earth do numbers count in equality? Is a number of children being bullied worse than one child?

Yes smileless it's so depressing. Alistair Campbell for example tweeting that we are getting our knickers in a twist about this issue. It's like listening to something from the 1930s. But hes had the grace to delete I suppose.

So some schools have fewer children than that who are of different racial heritage Doodledog are you suggesting that it isn't necessary to teach those children about racial equality?
What a ridiculous comment. Are you unaware there are a great many more than 0.004% of people with different racial heritage. I defy anyone to say they never meet people of different racial heritages. Why try to imply that Doodledog would endorse not teaching racial equality? Every time I think the twisting can't sink much lower I'm proved wrong.

Glorianny

Doodledog

VioletSky

Galaxy

The sexism is as I have described, a regressive problem has been created by talking about being a woman or a man linked to clothes make up etc. Its going to take forever to undo.

It is, because having gender dysphoria and the feeling of being born into the wrong body... many children will try to express that in line with popular ways of doing so

So children who are not conforming to gender norms being bullied with transphobic slurs shows a really clear lack of any understanding and has strong roots in sexism

But something like 0.004% of children have gender dysphoria (as outlined upthread), or are you ignoring that inconvenient truth too?

I am not saying that those children are not important, but they need to be dealt with in a very specialised way, not by mainstream policies that are written for all children.

So some schools have fewer children than that who are of different racial heritage Doodledog are you suggesting that it isn't necessary to teach those children about racial equality? Aren't they in fact the very children who need to learn about it before they go out into the wider world? And why on earth do numbers count in equality? Is a number of children being bullied worse than one child?

A racial heritage which is different from what? Anyway, I repeat in case you missed it:
I am not saying that those children are not important, but they need to be dealt with in a very specialised way, not by mainstream policies that are written for all children.

A mainstream anti-bullying policy would pick up instances of racism, bullying of gender-dysphoric children and any others who may or may not be represented in a particular school, and absolutely should be. Your example is a false equivalence, as I'm sure you know, however, as racism applies to far more than 0.004% of people in the country as a whole, whether or not in a particular school at a particular time, and being of a particular race is not a psychological (or psychiatric?) issue, which is the case for gender dysphoria.

GD needs to be dealt with by a qualified psychologist to psychiatrist (I'm not sure which), not by an all-school policy in a school where no such children are in attendance. Or do you think that teachers and TAs should be dealing with that, too?

Rosie51

^So some schools have fewer children than that who are of different racial heritage Doodledog are you suggesting that it isn't necessary to teach those children about racial equality?^
What a ridiculous comment. Are you unaware there are a great many more than 0.004% of people with different racial heritage. I defy anyone to say they never meet people of different racial heritages. Why try to imply that Doodledog would endorse not teaching racial equality? Every time I think the twisting can't sink much lower I'm proved wrong.

What do you mean? It's true that some schools have very few children or no children with different racial heritage

So it is not right for any demographic to be left pout. Especially when the equality act applies to allnadults and children and they should know more about it.

And they certainly should not goagainst the equality act without some sort of challenge.

As I have mentioned, very little education happens in some schools about trans people. I mentioned one lesson in an entire year on LTBTQ in general

I think if we are going to travel the road that gender dysphoria is mental illness doodledog that's a dangerous and dismissive idea.

It's not a mental illness.

We don't treat it like a mental illness

It is the cause of mental illness.

We treat it like we would treat someone who lost a limb and is suffering because they cannot engage in life in the way they need too.

We don't treat them like they have a mental illness and counsel them accepting themselves as they are, we treat them as suffering something that will cause mental illness left untreated. We find solutions that help them engage in life.

Did you read my post VS? I'll accept that some very tiny rural schools will only have children of one ethnic background, but I stand by my assertion that even those children will encounter people from diverse ethnic backgrounds in the course of their daily lives, whether that's at the shops, library, swimming pool, cinema or a hundred other places.

Rosie51

Did you read my post VS? I'll accept that some very tiny rural schools will only have children of one ethnic background, but I stand by my assertion that even those children will encounter people from diverse ethnic backgrounds in the course of their daily lives, whether that's at the shops, library, swimming pool, cinema or a hundred other places.

You've probably encountered lots of trans people Rosie you just didn't know

Violetsky
You appear to be deflecting from your OP.
Is this because bit by bit your being backed into a corner with your argument.
transphobia has its roots in sexism
I know you can’t see it but it’s very obvious

It is, because having gender dysphoria and the feeling of being born into the wrong body... many children will try to express that in line with popular ways of doing so

Can you show any account of that happening?

The accounts I've seen show a young child being prevented from wearing clothes, playing with toys, having hair how they want it - all because of adults' sexist views about what is allowed for a child of a particular sex.

It goes like this :
Adult "You must do/not do xyz because you are a boy/girl"
Child "How do you know I'm a boy/girl and not a girl/boy?"
Adult "Because you have a penis/vulva"
Child "I don't want / do want a penis. My body is wrong"
Adult "You must be trans. You can do all the things you want and when you're older doctors will make sure you are a woman/man which is what you want"
Child "Goody."
Adult & Child Repeat last two statements until child reaches puberty

I expect you can guess what happens then.

VioletSky

I think if we are going to travel the road that gender dysphoria is mental illness doodledog that's a dangerous and dismissive idea.

It's not a mental illness.

We don't treat it like a mental illness

It is the cause of mental illness.

We treat it like we would treat someone who lost a limb and is suffering because they cannot engage in life in the way they need too.

We don't treat them like they have a mental illness and counsel them accepting themselves as they are, we treat them as suffering something that will cause mental illness left untreated. We find solutions that help them engage in life.

Who is we in this context, please? How many children have you treated (or even encountered) who have GD?

Rosie51

^So some schools have fewer children than that who are of different racial heritage Doodledog are you suggesting that it isn't necessary to teach those children about racial equality?^
What a ridiculous comment. Are you unaware there are a great many more than 0.004% of people with different racial heritage. I defy anyone to say they never meet people of different racial heritages. Why try to imply that Doodledog would endorse not teaching racial equality? Every time I think the twisting can't sink much lower I'm proved wrong.

Again, cross posting to make the same point, Rosie. It's good to know that I am not going mad though - some of the posts on this thread might drive me that way though

MerylStreep

Violetsky
You appear to be deflecting from your OP.
Is this because bit by bit your being backed into a corner with your argument.
transphobia has its roots in sexism
I know you can’t see it but it’s very obvious

What do you mean?

VioletSky

I think if we are going to travel the road that gender dysphoria is mental illness doodledog that's a dangerous and dismissive idea.

It's not a mental illness.

We don't treat it like a mental illness

It is the cause of mental illness.

We treat it like we would treat someone who lost a limb and is suffering because they cannot engage in life in the way they need too.

We don't treat them like they have a mental illness and counsel them accepting themselves as they are, we treat them as suffering something that will cause mental illness left untreated. We find solutions that help them engage in life.

Also, if GD is not a mental illness, what is it? It is not physical, and is not something felt my the vast majority of children.

How would you define it, please?

doodledog science has already discovered differences in the genes of transgender people and is looking further into that and the idea that at some point in development in the womb, the brain is washed with hormones that do not correspond to the sex organs developed.

This makes a lot of sense to me as a physical/biological cause of gender dysphoria

However we are going very far off topic of this post and I am getting blamed for that so could we possibly take it back to its original purpose?

The point of my post (roundly missed by some of course) is that numbers don't matter. Equality needs to be taught and if trans issues are causing bullying in school (and at least two posters have given evidence it is,, however different their perceptions might be) then it needs tackling. And just as you can't say that numbers are small so teaching anti-racism doesn't matter so not teaching about trans issues isn't justified because numbers are small.

Who is blaming you for anything?

I am just asking you what, if not a mental illness GC actually is, please? And also how many children with the condition you have encountered? That would be really helpful to know, as your posts are very confident, and it would be good to know how much of an expert you actually are.

Doodledog

Who is blaming you for anything?

I am just asking you what, if not a mental illness GC actually is, please? And also how many children with the condition you have encountered? That would be really helpful to know, as your posts are very confident, and it would be good to know how much of an expert you actually are.

I've already answered you

Is there something wrong with the way I am communicating doodledog that it is categorised as "confident"

I think the point of discussion is discuss ideas and I know that some people are uncomfortable with discussing ideas and prefer to just place their personal opinions rather than discuss possibilities

VS doodledog science has already discovered differences in the genes of transgender people and is looking further into that and the idea that at some point in development in the womb, the brain is washed with hormones that do not correspond to the sex organs developed.

Please link to the peer reviewed studies that have clearly shown these gene differences. I wonder if they've found similar differences in the genes of anorexics, or those people who want to lose limbs or their eyesight in order to align their bodies with their inner self.

Of course the danger in identifying these gene differences, if indeed they can, is that they will be able to test for them in utero and many people could decide to terminate the pregnancy rather than face the difficulties, just like some do with a foetus with Down syndrome.

VioletSky

I think if we are going to travel the road that gender dysphoria is mental illness doodledog that's a dangerous and dismissive idea.

It's not a mental illness.

We don't treat it like a mental illness

It is the cause of mental illness.

We treat it like we would treat someone who lost a limb and is suffering because they cannot engage in life in the way they need too.

We don't treat them like they have a mental illness and counsel them accepting themselves as they are, we treat them as suffering something that will cause mental illness left untreated. We find solutions that help them engage in life.

VS - I'm disabled, I can't engage in life the way I used to, so how do you think I should be treated?

Why do you think I even want to be treated in any way differently to others?

What "solutions" do you think others might find, that I haven't found for myself?

I'm not sure about being untreated would result in mental illness either.

There are a lot of assumptions there - those with physical disabilities aren't clones of each other. We find out what's best for us, and jog on with it.

The one thing that drives most disabled people nuts is non disabled people trying inflict their views on what we need upon us.

There are stigmas in real life with physical disability, for children and adults. but they have to be dealt with. I would hope any school has strategies in place for that for children..

As adults, we have to find our own way.

GD is not physical, but mental disability is no less a disability than the physical sort.

Sandyford clinic in Scotland didn’t listen to Sinead Watsons when she spoke about her mental health problems

twitter.com/GBNEWS/status/1557845418150711296

Rosie51

VS doodledog science has already discovered differences in the genes of transgender people and is looking further into that and the idea that at some point in development in the womb, the brain is washed with hormones that do not correspond to the sex organs developed.

Please link to the peer reviewed studies that have clearly shown these gene differences. I wonder if they've found similar differences in the genes of anorexics, or those people who want to lose limbs or their eyesight in order to align their bodies with their inner self.

Of course the danger in identifying these gene differences, if indeed they can, is that they will be able to test for them in utero and many people could decide to terminate the pregnancy rather than face the difficulties, just like some do with a foetus with Down syndrome.

I've posted them many times, you might be happier researching yourself

Yes I mentioned earlier in the thread that if it leads to a test one-day some might choose to terminate the pregnancy

Other might choose to expect society to make some adaptations

Very hypothetical though