Transphobic Bullying

True, but VS is accusing me (again) of projecting my perception onto her reality. I was doing nothing of the kind.

I don’t think that VS is as neutral in this debate as she pretends, but of course I may be wrong, so I simply asked her to clarify in what way she is ‘on the fence’ (her term), wondering what was giving her cause for doubt in what comes across as an unequivocal lack of support for gender-critical feminism.

I haven’t read her denial of bias into anything VS has said (she claimed that for herself), or imposed my ‘perception’ onto her ‘reality’ in any way. I am getting sick of these accusations of ‘narrating her life’, imposing perceptions, ‘reading things between the lines of posts’ and so on. It is as though I am being accused of madness (a bit like the woman in the Gaslight film). These are personal attacks, and add nothing to the debate. Please stop it, VS.

VioletSky

We just take responsibility one at a time until things get better and sensible people can be heard because the shouting stopped

I certainly agree with you on that idea. And it might happen....

Once TRA's stop with waving their penis around, yelling at women, trying to attend private meetings, to "suck it" and threatening to rape them....

Once people stop being hounded out of school, job, career and homes simply because they don't buy into the myth that wanting to be a woman makes you one...

Once people stop trying to take previously held rights from biological women, and allow them their "private spaces". It's not very sensible or kind, or non discrinatory to effectively "bar" some biological women from activities because their culture doesn't allow them to mix with biological men...

Once the NHS use some common sense, and realise that not everyone has English as a first language, and stops using stupid labels such as "ovary havers" in leaflets that only affect biological women..

Roll on the end of shouting, bullying and hectoring by TRA's and their gang.?

Let's hear it for sensible people.?

Your posts speak for themselves Doodledog and I'm sure I'm not alone in appreciating the intelligent and well written contributions you've made not just to this thread, but all of those that have discussed trans issues.

If any logic had been applied from the very beginning, we wouldn't be in this situation would we.

So from a logical perspective:

A man cannot be a woman. A TW can look like a woman, feel like a woman and within the obvious limitations live like a woman, but a man can never be a woman.

An intact male in a woman's safe is an invasion of that space and potentially puts women at risk. A risk that would have never been possible, until this became a possibility.

The fear that women have of the possibility of the aforementioned happening isn't irrational, hysterical or transphobic. It's based on logic, the logic being that if an intact male wishes to cause harm, being entitled to be in women's safe places simply because he claims to be identifying as a woman, provides easy access to potential victims.

TW competing against women in sport gives an unfair advantage. It's so obvious and so illogical to think otherwise, it beggars belief that this was ever allowed to happen.

Blanket assertions especially when directed at the young, that puberty blockers, binders and the potential for life changing surgery are not harmful but a positive, are dangerous as well as illogical. The recommendation of any of these interventions needs to be addressed on an individual basis.

Finally, what fly's in the face of logic is when the extremely vocal, so called supporters of a minority group, any minority seeking inclusion and acceptance, alienates that group from the rest of society by inciting hatred and violence and by riding rough shod over the rights of others in pursuit of their own.

Actually, I don't think anyone can sit on a wall with this.

You either agree with the extreme, and sometimes harmful, way things were going (although there is a pushback now, that politicians are listening to).

Or you don't.

DiamondLily, thank you.
I cannot add anything more pertinent to your list of ‘Once’ statements, since you seem to have covered what needs to happen. Sensible people will agree with all those points, and your final point, which I will quote,
Actually, I don't think anyone can sit on a wall with this.
You either agree with the extreme, and sometimes harmful, way things were going (although there is a pushback now, that politicians are listening too).
Or you don't.

Smileless2012, thank you too.
Your clarification of logical perspectives should reassure and inform all those who are currently sitting in a fence or a wall.

The only thing that I can add, is that the aim of most transgender people, unless I am mistaken, (and please correct me if I am wrong about this), is to live a peaceful, non-confrontational life.
This chance for a peaceful, non-confrontational life has been challenged by the rise of the ‘harmful to women’ aspect of transgender with its ardent support by institutions like Stonewall and TRA and many TAF.
You either support these ‘harmful to women’ activities (or *harmful to female *for those who confuse the term women with male,)
or you don’t.*

You're not wrong Mollgo. The spotlight is shining on them and I fail to see how those responsible can possibly imagine that their agenda can help those simply wanting to live their lives in peace.

The danger mainly comes from the push for acceptance of self-id of sex.
There is now no hindrance at all to any abusive male persons harrassing and assaulting women and girls by claiming to be trans.

I cannot for the life of me understand why anyone thinks this is acceptable FarNorth and I've not seen anything that convinces me otherwise.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts

Happy Saturday!

That’s OK VS. We like to share positive thoughts, even if some of them will fall on stony or thorny ground.
Happy Saturday

Are we not going to find out the nature of VS's 'on the fence' feelings then?

I did wonder what she was going to come up with for that one.

DD. I await the information that your question means you’re not “being kind”.

I would like to think that you’re genuinely interested, as am I.

I would like to think that it’s seen as OK to ask for clarification of points made in a discussion.

I would like to think I’m wrong in saying that asking questions about posts has now been ‘perceived’ as bullying.

My visitors have just arrived, so I’ll have to absent myself from the discussion for now.
Happy Saturday afternoon.

The only trans people I have met have been friendly, kind and inclusive. And none of them have done anything like the things described. In fact some of the people I have met who are trans, bi, non-binary whatever (some of them were unidentifiable and I didn't ask) were welcoming and supportive to the group of older women I was with. They were simply lovely people.

I have met some pretty awful people of both sexes over the years.

I do wonder though if the incidence of trans people is as low as Doodledog asserted when trying to say education about trans issues wasn't essential how on earth can the position of women be threatened by them? Women make up almost 50% of the world's population and almost 51%of the UKs. Yet we are apparently threatened by a community of less than 1%? What happened to strong confident women who took on the male bastions and demanded change? Are they now reduced to picking on minorities and demonising people who are different? Well sorry but I'm not jumping on that bandwagon. Feminism was never about damaging or hurting people.

They are currently fighting to retain single sex provision.

Glorianny The only trans people I have met have been friendly, kind and inclusive. As you constantly tell/told us we couldn't tell transpeople without examining their genitals are you quite sure that none of I have met some pretty awful people of both sexes over the years were in fact transpeople?

Have I missed something?

I'm neither 'being kind' nor unkind. I just get fed up with the positioning of one side of this debate as one-sided, and the other as reasonable, questioning and open to debate. I accept that I have strong views on the matter, but I see that coming right back at me.

FWIW, one of my very first threads on GN was when I didn't really have strong views and was just joining in. I asked a simple question about why children were transitioning rather than being taught that a preference for particular 'gender norms' meant that they should change sex, and the reply was so rude and unpleasant (apparently I was right wing, transphobic and ill-informed, and should 'educate myself'). I now know that this is shorthand for 'you disagree with me, and I can't answer your question but won't admit it', but didn't know that then. I did as I was told and researched the matter, which led to me feeling as I now do.* This subject has never been argued dispassionately, and probably never will be, but that does not come exclusively from the so-called 'gender critical' side of the argument, and it is dishonest to suggest that this is the case. I wish it would stop.

*(moral - you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar)

I do wonder though if the incidence of trans people is as low as Doodledog asserted when trying to say education about trans issues wasn't essential how on earth can the position of women be threatened by them?

Where was I 'trying to say' that, please?

Galaxy

They are currently fighting to retain single sex provision.

I don't think this is under threat. I agree it hasn't been properly administered in the past, but I don't think this is the fault of transpeople. It's a bit like blaming all drivers because some idiots ignore speed limits. The law is there and most respect it. If someone advocates no speed limits are all drivers complicit?

I am not blaming transpeople, I am just explaining what the feminists are doing. Oh and crowdfunding for the whistleblowers that takes a bit of time too.

And producing guidance for schools so we try and avoid telling children their bodies are wrong.
And campaigning against violence against women, and challenging the sex work is work mantra. That's what the strong women are doing in my view.

Glorianna

For the hundredth time - Nobody is blaming transpeople.

Complaints about how things work are about how things work. It may well be that the fault is with the government, the prison system, people who make M&S policies about changing rooms or myriad other people. What people on these threads are saying is not that the shambles we are in is the fault of transpeople - in fact we are often at pains to point out that we sympathise with many of them - but with Stonewall and its adherents who have captured the agenda and forced it through with no further thought than that the erroneous mantra that TWAW.

Too many 'that's in the last sentence of my last post, but I hope the gist is clear.

Galaxy

I am not blaming transpeople, I am just explaining what the feminists are doing. Oh and crowdfunding for the whistleblowers that takes a bit of time too.

But they are doing it by harming other people. Now you can believe someone who is trans remains their birth sex, but what possible harm can it do to refer to them by their chosen name and pronoun.
I worked in quite a few Catholic schools, when the children said prayers I bowed my head with them. I don't believe in God but the school ethos and the children's religion required I conform so I did. I could I suppose have refused to join in but what good would that have done?

Also now I have said that I am not sure how I feel about the whole 'strong women' thing. That's a vaguely interesting thing to think about.

The cass report is saying it's not possible to say Glorianny with regard to social transition so I am not going to engage in things which may cause harm.