Transphobic Bullying

I think people DO understand you, VS, but they also understand all the other reasons why children in school get bullied., and what makes the bullies act as they do Your focus is on the trans issue so perhaps it is YOU who is not listening to what other posters are saying?

Are we edging the way round to implicating the parents?

I'm sure a lot have not a clue what their little darlings get up to at school.

Elegran

I think people DO understand you, VS, but they also understand all the other reasons why children in school get bullied., and what makes the bullies act as they do Your focus is on the trans issue so perhaps it is YOU who is not listening to what other posters are saying?

Oh

Well not really a focus, as I said I've seen other trends over the years

Sorry you feel that way ,I am listening I just don't agree it is as simple as bullies being bullies and I have backed that up by sharing government policy on the causes of this type of bullying

So VS, whether one form of bullying is worse than another or not, how would you advise a school deal with the issue of bullying by a trans child
who uses the fact that she can get others punished for use of a pronoun she doesn’t like, even when the uniform allows no definite indication,
who feels she has the right to send pornographic material, advocate breast binding and puberty blockers,
and tell other girls that if their parents don’t support a desire to change sex (no she doesn’t acknowledge the difference between sex and gender any more than some things I’ve read about on GN) then they’ll probably be driven to commit suicide,
all in the secure knowledge that she can play the transphobia card when challenged
How would you advise the school?

Mollygo

So VS, whether one form of bullying is worse than another or not, how would you advise a school deal with the issue of bullying by a trans child
who uses the fact that she can get others punished for use of a pronoun she doesn’t like, even when the uniform allows no definite indication,
who feels she has the right to send pornographic material, advocate breast binding and puberty blockers,
and tell other girls that if their parents don’t support a desire to change sex (no she doesn’t acknowledge the difference between sex and gender any more than some things I’ve read about on GN) then they’ll probably be driven to commit suicide,
all in the secure knowledge that she can play the transphobia card when challenged
How would you advise the school?

Well I'm not really in à position to advise schools or their policies.

But I would expect them to uphold anti bullying policies, even of it was happening outside school hours. I would deem sending pornographic images or unwanted messages as harassment and against the school values and I would expect them to take that seriously and enforce that with suspension or exclusion if necessary.

Mollygo

So VS, whether one form of bullying is worse than another or not, how would you advise a school deal with the issue of bullying by a trans child
who uses the fact that she can get others punished for use of a pronoun she doesn’t like, even when the uniform allows no definite indication,
who feels she has the right to send pornographic material, advocate breast binding and puberty blockers,
and tell other girls that if their parents don’t support a desire to change sex (no she doesn’t acknowledge the difference between sex and gender any more than some things I’ve read about on GN) then they’ll probably be driven to commit suicide,
all in the secure knowledge that she can play the transphobia card when challenged
How would you advise the school?

Well I can tell you Mollygo

Firstly using a preferred pronoun is not only good manners but it is acknowledging the reality of the person in question and failing to use it is therefore a subtle form of bullying. It's like referring to someone with red hair as "carrot top" perhaps innocuous to the observer but very damaging to the person involved.
If someone is sending pornographic material it should be reported to the child protection police- no need to even involve the school.
If you think your child is being overly influenced by this person then discuss it with them.
Incidently the "transphobic card" sounds to me like an updated version of the "race card" used to mask real transphobia.

Glorianny is also correct but I didn't want to detract from the importance of shutting down any form of bullying

I think I will wait for the Cass report with regard to social affirmation, it seems to be saying that the evidence is not clear on this, so I would rather follow that guidance to be honest. It seems that jumping into strategies has done a lot of damage and I think care should be taken about further charging in with no evidence to support this.

A few weeks ago we were being told that puberty blockers were harmless, that appears not to be the case so when dealing with very vulnerable young people I wont just be doing things because people on the internet tell me it's the right thing to do.

We can't really look into anything without acknowledging trends and possibilities.

Certain words are still used as slurs even though society has largely moved on from those slurs nd we know that not everyone has moved on from things like homophobia, racism and sexism.

But I have noticed an uptake in using trans slurs against, not just trans children but other children who arent trans and that seems to be moving in step with the flow of public opinion...

If that correlation were proven, even if anyone wants to argue at the present it is only hypothetical, what could we do as adults to ensure that wider issues in society aren't being played out on the playground amongst our children nd grandchildren?

Can we discuss these issues responsibly?

Faced with a playground full of girls, in school uniform, of trousers or skirts, how would you decide who is trans and who isn’t?

Misgendering someone by using a pronoun isn’t done when speaking to that person. The pronoun used there is ‘you’.
‘She’ or whatever pronoun this group had decided was the current pronoun they wanted (yes, they did do that!) is used when talking about someone to someone else.
Using your group of bullies to police other girls, not just my DGD, talking among themselves so you can report them for being transphobic is bullying.

Thank you for your mention of ‘the race card’ Glorianny. I hadn’t realised that that’s what was happening.
Using the transphobic card like a ‘race card’ is exactly what this trans is doing. Anything she doesn’t like, especially girls leaving her group because they don’t like what she and others are doing, is met with a cry of “They’re not my friends any more because I’m trans! That’s transphobic!”
Are you saying that bullying is OK as long as it’s a trans who is doing the bullying?

If someone is sending pornographic material it should be reported to the child protection police- no need to even involve the school.

When using a school WhatsApp group, the first point of call is the school- You should read information re Internet Safety -should be on a school’s website and does not allow the school to ignore it.

If you think your child is being overly influenced by this person then discuss it with them.

* Define overly influenced in this situation.

Whatever other response you post, please respond to * above.

I’d be really interested to know exactly what you thing the trans child was doing to overly influence my DGD.

My DGD went to her mum to ask what to do to get out of the group.
If you know anything at all about bullying you will know that bullied children often don’t want you to go into school and say anything in case it makes the bullying worse. They just want it to stop.

Define overly influenced in this situation.

Glorianny, Whatever other response you post, please respond to the question above.

I’d be really interested to know exactly what you thing the trans child was doing to overly influence my DGD.

How would other posters define the overly influencing that Glorianny mentioned?

I’m a bit transfixed by this idea of “Your perception is not my reality”. I hadn’t heard that before.

How would you deal with a bully who said that when confronted?

Gosh, it could be the most useful phrase I’ve ever been given.

It's a huge cop-out favoured by gaslighters. And possibly people who live in an alternative reality.

The 'race card' is what people say when they think a person of colour is gaining an advantage by reporting something as racism, and the phrase does diminish actual racism. The 'trans card' was, perhaps, an unfortunate way to phrase what you are describing, Molly, but that does not diminish the seriousness of the situation. It is infuriating when the real issues in a post are ignored in favour of pointing out a 'transgression' or a diversionary opportunity, but I dare say we are all used to that by now.

What you are describing seems to be someone jumping on the trans/Stonewall bandwagon to gain power, which she appears to have over the other girls and the staff. Regardless of how it was described, this is very definitely bullying behaviour, and must be very frustrating to have to deal with. I hope your grand-daughter is ok.

Lathyrus

I’m a bit transfixed by this idea of “Your perception is not my reality”. I hadn’t heard that before.

How would you deal with a bully who said that when confronted?

Gosh, it could be the most useful phrase I’ve ever been given.

It's a defence against someone trying to assert something about yourself that isn't true.

I am a genuine person

I would really appreciate if this thread did not derail which is something we can all take personal responsibility for

I think it is an important subject

Well I thought Molly made a good point with the 'trans card'.

Someone may be criticised for doing/saying something which has nothing to do with them being trans, but if the accusation is made that the reason is because they're trans, it's a convenient way of taking the spotlight off themselves, and in the same way that the race card can diminish actual racism, the trans card can diminish actual transphobia.

We are all genuine people, VS.

I think we have to accept that there are different versions of 'the truth' in many cases, and describing someone's own version as 'their perception' and claiming 'reality' for yourself is at best dismissive and at worst gaslighting.

I completely agree, Smileless. The complaint about the term was a diversion from the serious issues Molly describes.

Doodledog.

Please stop telling me what I think or mean doodledog

Please show me where I have done that, VS

Doodledog

*. . . .as some people do not believe acceptance of trans people should be taught in school at all and view it as indoctrination.*
Acceptance of transpeople is perfectly possible without agreeing that they have changed sex, and I'm pretty sure you understand that that is the POV of many people on this thread. That sort of word-twisting is very passive-aggressive, and explains why I, for one, do not believe you are either moderate or a fence-sitter.

Here is an example

There are many many news articles talking about indoctrination on schools and I am talking about the way things are discussed in public in general in the media and places like twitter. I don't think teenagers would be interested in gransnet at all

I didn't suggest that they were ?.

I was picking up on the way you use language to claim the moral high ground, as you did with the 'your perception is not my reality' comment. As I said, you can accept transpeople without buying into the Stonewall agenda that TWAW. It is not the case that those who criticise the ideas behind gender politics don't 'accept' transpeople, and it is not ok to suggest otherwise. 'Some people' is a phrase I pick up on frequently, as it is usually used as shorthand for so-called gender-critical people on these threads, but that can be denied if it gets awkward, which I suspect is about to happen.

Similarly, saying that my views are a perception, and yours are reality is dismissive. Telling people that they are wrong to feel as they do is gaslighting (quite literally, actually - the woman in the play was constantly told that it was just a perception that the lights were being turned off, and the reality was that they weren't).

I am not trying to derail the thread, but I really object to this sort of thing, and not mentioning it means capitulating to it.

doodledog I'm not being passive aggressive, twisting words or gaslighting.

I am not accusing others of doing so by attaching meaning to my words that arent there, making asumptions or accusing people of being abusive in discussion because that would be incredibly unkind, so I am treating them as genuine people and would like the same courtesy.

You seem as knowledgeable about gaslighting as I am having had it done to me for many years.

I'm not doing that so every time you say I am using an abuse tactic in discussion it is incredibly painful, I have done a lot of work towards moving away from my childhood and raising my own children in a better way.

I am genuinely concerned about this type of bullying.

It isn't like bullying a person with glasses.

It is like bullying someone who isn't wearing glasses with slurs about glasses wearers.

It is bullying a person for not coforming to gender norms in some way by using a topic being discussed in the wider public eye in an often negative way towards trans people.

Which I think has strong roots in sexism because most of us are feminists and do not want or need gender norms. And we certainly wouldn't want our children or grandchildren bullied for not conforming to them.

I answered that question some time ago didnt I. Challenge stereotypes, no such thing as dressing as a woman etc. Gender is oppressive in my view, damaging for men and women.