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Another Benefit of Brexit?

(457 Posts)
Granny23 Sun 18-Sept-22 11:14:25

Just this!

The pound is at its lowest level since the crash of 1985. The average UK household is projected to be poorer than the average Slovenian household by 2024 and Polish by 2030 (source: John Murdoch in the financial times today).
Glad we took back control eh!

Fleurpepper Wed 08-Feb-23 15:28:04

Dickens

vegansrock

Yes, remember we were told “we hold all the cards” and “ they need us more than we need them “ and “German car manufacturers would force the EU to give U.K. a good deal” etc. Obviously lots of people believed this. Maybe they are delusional enough to still believe it or now they think the EU forced us to sign a deliberately bad deal as some sort of punishment we obviously didn’t deserve. May I remind those who take this line - no one had to sign up to this deal- we were told it was marvellous, oven ready etc.

You know, you can re-quote these comments from various individuals which, at the time, were enthusiastically swallowed and repeated by many (it seems) Brexit enthusiasts, but it makes not one scrap of difference to those who still believe (and say) that the EU is a corrupt, evil, bureaucratic institution. They are and will remain convinced that the EU is punishing us for leaving - regardless of the fact that we have now put ourselves in the position of a 'third country' and will automatically have to abide by regulations that cover that status. It is a sad - and alarming - fact that some Brexiters have confused "third country" with "third-world country". I would emphasis some because I think they are a minority, Brexiters I know can distinguish between the two. However, it does indicate a level of misunderstanding and ignorance of how the EU functions. When you consider that we've got the government we now have because of such unawareness, it makes it very hard to tolerate the accusations of 'Remoaners' not 'respecting' the "democratic" will of the Leave contingent.
But, worse than that IMO, is that Brexit has almost become another victim of the "no debate" culture. As far as many Brexiters are concerned, it's over and done with, and any discussion about its effects on individuals, or the nation as a whole, is tantamount to treachery - it is unpatriotic to question the aftermath of the event. This is what disquiets me most - that the biggest change to our economic and constitutional life since the end of the 2nd world war is, in the minds of many, a forbidden topic. It is illogical and it is unnatural... and IMO it's almost criminal - that any attempt to talk about the repercussions of Brexit is regarded as subversion. The critics are often the very same people who rail against the 'cancel culture' and 'wokeness' in universities where individuals have been no-platformed for holding views that are contrary to current thinking and beliefs. Yet they themselves are not open-minded enough to allow opinions against Brexit - hence all the "get over it" type of comments from Brexiters when Remainers dare to question the validity and purpose of leaving the EU.
I don't believe Brexiters knew at all what they were voting for - how could they with all the conflicting hype from the Leave campaign. They simply wanted to leave, and we did. Unfortunately, leaving was just the beginning of the end, and not the end itself.
... but, we shouldn't talk about it, just accept it. And "hope for the best" or believe that it will "all sort itself out". Meanwhile, the government that got into power on the back of it is wreaking havoc on the nation.
I find it utterly depressing.

Thank you so much Dickens for this. Just how I feel but you said it so well.

Fleurpepper Wed 08-Feb-23 15:29:32

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

ronib Wed 08-Feb-23 16:44:40

Casdon

I believe that was a Liz Truss initiative ronib. It ‘lost momentum’ in the political turmoil last year. Here’s an update.
www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/publication/whitehall-monitor-2023/year-ahead

Casdon is the think tank The Institute for Government headed up by Baroness Amos? Is this a politically neutral organisation do you know?

Casdon Wed 08-Feb-23 17:06:47

It claims to be politically neutral ronib - but difficult to tell. I could only find an update on their site, the Maude review seems to have been quietly dropped by the government - or, at least it didn’t report back in the autumn of 2022 as it was meant to, and hasn’t been mentioned in dispatches since July.

ronib Wed 08-Feb-23 17:09:30

Fleurpepper and in a dystopian novel, or play you might have a starring role!

Fleurpepper Wed 08-Feb-23 17:15:15

Hurrah

Dickens Wed 08-Feb-23 17:38:39

Fleurpepper

Would you mind if I shared it elsewhere? If you don't mind, how do you want me to quote it? (as in 'a friend elsewhere said' or ?!? your choice of words.

Fleurpepper

Of course - and you can put your own interpretation on it too because I'm not sure I really have it 'quite right'.

... "a friend elsewhere" is fine. I like to be as anonymous as possible grin.

growstuff Wed 08-Feb-23 18:05:07

ronib

Lord Maude on 27th July 2022 was to lead the review into Civil Service governance and accountability. I can find no finished report.
I have found mention that the heads of civil service departments should not be civil servants but political appointees.
I have no way of knowing what the current state of play might be.
There seems to be some dissatisfaction with the relationship between government and Civil Service but I don’t believe there’s enough whitewash to absolve either group.

This was Dominic Cummings' big idea.

He hated the idea that the Civil Service had any influence at all over government ministers. They don't formulate policy, although they have a duty to advise ministers because they know far more about their specific areas than politicians do. They're also responsible for implementing policy and know what unforeseen consequences there might be.

Therefore, he put pressure on some senior Civil Servants to resign. He was also responsible for an explosion of SpAd appointments. These are political appointments and have effectively taken over the role of civil servants, so ministers no longer have "critical friends" but nodding lapdogs.

growstuff Wed 08-Feb-23 18:18:16

Casdon

It claims to be politically neutral ronib - but difficult to tell. I could only find an update on their site, the Maude review seems to have been quietly dropped by the government - or, at least it didn’t report back in the autumn of 2022 as it was meant to, and hasn’t been mentioned in dispatches since July.

I have two close relatives who were very senior Civil Servants before retirement and the son of a friend who is one now. On a personal level, they're politically old-fashioned Tory, but they go to great pains to explain that professionally they're politically neutral.

My daughter was on the Civil Service's Fast Stream after she graduated. Her own politics are left of centre and she found that most of her fellow appointees were conservative (with a small 'c'). They tended to be people who would follow orders and didn't want to upset the apple cart, while having a deep sense of professional pride and love for their country.

growstuff Wed 08-Feb-23 18:25:47

The departments which have experienced the biggest cuts are those with the biggest operational delivery load, such as the DWP and HMRC. This has affected the number of people employed dealing with the public. In many cases, they have been replaced by online services, which has directly impacted on the service experienced by the public.

growstuff Wed 08-Feb-23 18:27:19

The irony of course is that Brexit has meant that the civil service has a bigger workload because it has had to take on some of the tasks previously done by the EU.

Casdon Wed 08-Feb-23 18:29:38

According to the government website:
‘Special advisers are a critical part of the team supporting Ministers. They add a political dimension to the advice and assistance available to Ministers while reinforcing the political impartiality of the permanent Civil Service by distinguishing the source of political advice and support.’
They are effectively temporary civil servants, with no managerial responsibility within the Civil Service if I understand correctly growstuff?
I guess that if anybody could be said to be equally culpable as the government for what’s happened, it is them - but they change with each minister.

growstuff Wed 08-Feb-23 19:28:51

Yes, that's my understanding Casdon. Dominic Cummings was a SpAd and was given far more power than civil servants.

HousePlantQueen Wed 08-Feb-23 19:53:30

Oh Cummings, that's a name I had managed to stick in the dark cupboard of my memory.

Dickens, your post sums up eloquently what I think about this whole Brexit business.

growstuff Wed 08-Feb-23 20:13:28

HousePlantQueen

Oh Cummings, that's a name I had managed to stick in the dark cupboard of my memory.

Dickens, your post sums up eloquently what I think about this whole Brexit business.

Unfortunately, he did an enormous amount of damage and we're still living with the consequences. People should be careful what they wish for, if they want senior civil servants to be political appointments. Politicians have budgets for personal assistants anyway.

Fleurpepper Wed 08-Feb-23 20:15:13

Dickens

Fleurpepper

Would you mind if I shared it elsewhere? If you don't mind, how do you want me to quote it? (as in 'a friend elsewhere said' or ?!? your choice of words.

Fleurpepper

Of course - and you can put your own interpretation on it too because I'm not sure I really have it 'quite right'.

... "a friend elsewhere" is fine. I like to be as anonymous as possible grin.

Thanks. I wouldn't have shared without your permission. It is just right.

ronib Wed 08-Feb-23 21:38:18

growstuff

The departments which have experienced the biggest cuts are those with the biggest operational delivery load, such as the DWP and HMRC. This has affected the number of people employed dealing with the public. In many cases, they have been replaced by online services, which has directly impacted on the service experienced by the public.

Growstuff there’s a loss of 5 to 6k civil servants in Inland Revenue and a shortfall in total tax collected of 5 per cent of total figure. My local mp thought this was acceptable. I don’t think it is especially with limited budgets for public service pay etc.

MayBee70 Thu 09-Feb-23 06:12:10

So, what is this wonderful trade deal we have just signed with Italy?

Katie59 Thu 09-Feb-23 07:37:14

According to Badenoch we are going to have a bonanza selling carbon capture and green technology to Italy, tariffs, quotas and other EU formalities will still have to be satisfied.

Whitewavemark2 Thu 09-Feb-23 07:43:15

How come Italy can sign a trade agreement independently from the rest of the EU.

Another load of lies the leave camp sold us.

Wyllow3 Thu 09-Feb-23 08:05:02

It broke my heart and has certainly contributed to breaking the economy. Good for the Queen, an unmissable statement grin

Wyllow3 Thu 09-Feb-23 08:10:43

PS, did the Sun post the pic of the Queen's hat or "forget"?

Remedies: re-establish good trade and custom relations with our EU partners asap for starters. Restablish trading standards. Re-etablish the Erasmus scheme before it disappear altogether. Look carefully on re-introducing a limited scheme of freedom of movement in order that our young people have opportunity abroad and vice-versa.

MayBee70 Thu 09-Feb-23 08:13:39

They have re established Erasmus under a different name I believe. But it’s nowhere near as good as Erasmus. Didn’t our wonderful Home Secretary benefit from Erasmus?

MaizieD Thu 09-Feb-23 08:19:16

Whitewavemark2

How come Italy can sign a trade agreement independently from the rest of the EU.

Another load of lies the leave camp sold us.

It's not a trade agreement.
It's a 'memorandum of understanding', which is different.

Didn't we sign one, to great tory self congratulatory acclaim, with a US state last year?

memorandum of understanding ( MoU) is a type of agreement between two ( bilateral) or more ( multilateral) parties. It expresses a convergence of will between the parties, indicating an intended common line of action. [1]

MoUs are not bound by international law and don't require any parliamentary scrutiny, unlike a trade deal.

ronib Thu 09-Feb-23 08:25:07

MaizieD yes it’s a MoU. So do we export our cars and power generating equipment to Italy under an MoU or a different trade deal do you know?

What have we promised to trade under the MoU?