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Another Benefit of Brexit?

(457 Posts)
Granny23 Sun 18-Sept-22 11:14:25

Just this!

The pound is at its lowest level since the crash of 1985. The average UK household is projected to be poorer than the average Slovenian household by 2024 and Polish by 2030 (source: John Murdoch in the financial times today).
Glad we took back control eh!

vegansrock Wed 08-Feb-23 04:14:59

The only qualification current Tory ministers have to have is that they are as thick as mince as well as supporting Brexit, of course. A quality which David Davis ( him of the Brexit negotiations) admitted to. No wonder we are in the doodoo. Quite literally in many places.

MayBee70 Wed 08-Feb-23 04:44:36

He’s a weird one, David Davis. Sometimes he comes across as a complete ( please add your own expletive) and yet at other times ( eg telling Johnson to go) he’s quite sensible. A bit of a loose cannon in many ways.

Whitewavemark2 Wed 08-Feb-23 06:36:26

growstuff

ronib

Whitewavemark2

At what level?

Classified information

gringringrin

I am afraid I gave up at that point.

Katie59 Wed 08-Feb-23 07:19:18

David Davis was a trusted adviser to Theresa May and persuaded her to ignore the chancellors opinion, that didn’t go well either.
He was the main promoter of “cherry picking” Brexit and the EU would give us a special deal, he was wrong. He is the kind of appealing man that you would be happy to shake hands with but count your fingers afterwards.

Katie59 Wed 08-Feb-23 07:28:10

MaizieD

Katie59

The Withdrawl agreement was written by the EU they gave away nothing, after the election slogan “get Brexit done” he and no option but to sign what was offered, having been assured he could change it.
He then spent the next year trying to wriggle out of what he signed and got absolutely nowhere.

Interesting interpretation, Katie59 hmm

From the beginning I did not see why the EU would change its rules to suit us, if it gave us a “special deal” all the other members would have said “we” are a special case too and the EU would have collapsed.

The stakes were that high. Now the much vaunted special relationship with the US has turned into a special relationship with the EU and we are out in the cold.

MayBee70 Wed 08-Feb-23 07:43:17

I think Johnson was rather depending on his friend Trump still being in the White House. Didn’t bank in a president who would be sympathetic towards Ireland. Obama warned us but, hey, what right had a furriner got to tell us who we could and couldn’t trade with…

vegansrock Wed 08-Feb-23 07:44:59

Yes, remember we were told “we hold all the cards” and “ they need us more than we need them “ and “German car manufacturers would force the EU to give U.K. a good deal” etc. Obviously lots of people believed this. Maybe they are delusional enough to still believe it or now they think the EU forced us to sign a deliberately bad deal as some sort of punishment we obviously didn’t deserve. May I remind those who take this line - no one had to sign up to this deal- we were told it was marvellous, oven ready etc.

vegansrock Wed 08-Feb-23 07:45:43

I see Nissan now state that their U.K. plant is no longer cost effective.

MayBee70 Wed 08-Feb-23 08:17:42

I’d still love to know how much the government have given Nissan thus far to avoid this. I seem to remember Nissan threatening to sue vote leave because they wrongly said that Nissan supported them but nothing then came of it.

Fleurpepper Wed 08-Feb-23 08:30:13

growstuff

ronib

Whitewavemark2

At what level?

Classified information

gringringrin

I can just imagine the Daily Mail writing 'mother of VERY Senior Civil servants says Brexit was poorly executed by them'

Dickens Wed 08-Feb-23 08:46:25

vegansrock

Yes, remember we were told “we hold all the cards” and “ they need us more than we need them “ and “German car manufacturers would force the EU to give U.K. a good deal” etc. Obviously lots of people believed this. Maybe they are delusional enough to still believe it or now they think the EU forced us to sign a deliberately bad deal as some sort of punishment we obviously didn’t deserve. May I remind those who take this line - no one had to sign up to this deal- we were told it was marvellous, oven ready etc.

You know, you can re-quote these comments from various individuals which, at the time, were enthusiastically swallowed and repeated by many (it seems) Brexit enthusiasts, but it makes not one scrap of difference to those who still believe (and say) that the EU is a corrupt, evil, bureaucratic institution. They are and will remain convinced that the EU is punishing us for leaving - regardless of the fact that we have now put ourselves in the position of a 'third country' and will automatically have to abide by regulations that cover that status. It is a sad - and alarming - fact that some Brexiters have confused "third country" with "third-world country". I would emphasis some because I think they are a minority, Brexiters I know can distinguish between the two. However, it does indicate a level of misunderstanding and ignorance of how the EU functions. When you consider that we've got the government we now have because of such unawareness, it makes it very hard to tolerate the accusations of 'Remoaners' not 'respecting' the "democratic" will of the Leave contingent.
But, worse than that IMO, is that Brexit has almost become another victim of the "no debate" culture. As far as many Brexiters are concerned, it's over and done with, and any discussion about its effects on individuals, or the nation as a whole, is tantamount to treachery - it is unpatriotic to question the aftermath of the event. This is what disquiets me most - that the biggest change to our economic and constitutional life since the end of the 2nd world war is, in the minds of many, a forbidden topic. It is illogical and it is unnatural... and IMO it's almost criminal - that any attempt to talk about the repercussions of Brexit is regarded as subversion. The critics are often the very same people who rail against the 'cancel culture' and 'wokeness' in universities where individuals have been no-platformed for holding views that are contrary to current thinking and beliefs. Yet they themselves are not open-minded enough to allow opinions against Brexit - hence all the "get over it" type of comments from Brexiters when Remainers dare to question the validity and purpose of leaving the EU.
I don't believe Brexiters knew at all what they were voting for - how could they with all the conflicting hype from the Leave campaign. They simply wanted to leave, and we did. Unfortunately, leaving was just the beginning of the end, and not the end itself.
... but, we shouldn't talk about it, just accept it. And "hope for the best" or believe that it will "all sort itself out". Meanwhile, the government that got into power on the back of it is wreaking havoc on the nation.
I find it utterly depressing.

ronib Wed 08-Feb-23 08:46:57

Fleurpepper imagine what you like.
Does anyone take this issue seriously?

The National Audit Office, among others has produced a report specifically on the Civil Service and its role in Brexit. There are articles too.

You don’t ever ask Civil Servants about their work. It’s not for you to know.

Keep reading the Daily Mail if it helps you.

Katie59 Wed 08-Feb-23 09:17:13

The other slogan was “no deal is better than a bad deal”, more whistling in the wind, no deal would have been armageddon, the bluff was ignored by the EU.

Now, what’s done is done, we get on with it and make the best of what we havn’t got.

Casdon Wed 08-Feb-23 09:59:32

ronib

Fleurpepper imagine what you like.
Does anyone take this issue seriously?

The National Audit Office, among others has produced a report specifically on the Civil Service and its role in Brexit. There are articles too.

You don’t ever ask Civil Servants about their work. It’s not for you to know.

Keep reading the Daily Mail if it helps you.

That made me smile ronib, because it’s very unlikely to be Daily Mail readers who are disagreeing with you on this thread.

One thing that’s occurred to me while reading your responses is that if you don’t ever ask civil servants about their work, what relevance is it that you have four in your family because they obviously don’t tell you anything at all?

The government has consistently ignored the advice from the civil service, who understand the implications of political actions far better than any politician does because they are detail people. Of course there are issues with the civil service, no public body is without them - but that is not why we are where we are.

ronib Wed 08-Feb-23 10:11:56

Casdon I was asked about how many Civil Servants I knew and to shut them up I said 4. Thinking about it, I know more and I too don’t know why it’s a relevant question.

I am a trained social scientist and would encourage an ability to objective research as this might aid our understanding. Probably a lost cause .

ronib Wed 08-Feb-23 10:15:35

Casdon one point you have overlooked. The government in recent years has changed so many times and continues to do so. In these particular circumstances, the Civil Service will hold the balance of power I suggest.

MaizieD Wed 08-Feb-23 10:15:48

Casdon I was asked about how many Civil Servants I knew and to shut them up I said 4. Thinking about it, I know more and I too don’t know why it’s a relevant question.

That's not the way to conduct a discussion, ronib. If you want to be taken seriously you'll have to do better than that.

Casdon Wed 08-Feb-23 10:21:49

I have a degree in the social sciences (Sociology) too ronib, that’s a coincidence.

Posters don’t ignore evidence in the main, and on the political threads there are a lot of very knowledgeable people. What I haven’t seen is any compelling evidence that indicates that the civil service are culpable for the post Brexit chaos. Of course as a tribe they would understand the pitfalls more than any politician, and will have advised accordingly, but at the end of the day they are not in control, the responsibility lies with the politicians not the servants - they are called that for a reason.

ronib Wed 08-Feb-23 10:23:40

MaizieD is anyone serious on this forum?

vegansrock Wed 08-Feb-23 11:48:37

Are you suggesting we aren’t serious? A social science degree would teach you that anecdote is not evidence.

Katie59 Wed 08-Feb-23 11:49:57

Blaming civil servants is just an attempt to shift the responsibility from politicians who made the wrong decisions.

And are still making the wrong decisions

Casdon Wed 08-Feb-23 12:24:04

ronib

Casdon one point you have overlooked. The government in recent years has changed so many times and continues to do so. In these particular circumstances, the Civil Service will hold the balance of power I suggest.

It was me who mentioned that ronib.
Is it the fault of the civil service if the government can’t get its act together and the politicians keep changing -no.
Is it the fault of the civil service if, by being a consistent presence through all the government changes they know more than the government-no.
And finally, do the civil service hold the balance of power- of course they don’t, how could they, they work at the behest of the politicians, they can only advise not take unilateral action.

ronib Wed 08-Feb-23 14:06:04

Lord Maude on 27th July 2022 was to lead the review into Civil Service governance and accountability. I can find no finished report.
I have found mention that the heads of civil service departments should not be civil servants but political appointees.
I have no way of knowing what the current state of play might be.
There seems to be some dissatisfaction with the relationship between government and Civil Service but I don’t believe there’s enough whitewash to absolve either group.

Casdon Wed 08-Feb-23 15:02:03

I believe that was a Liz Truss initiative ronib. It ‘lost momentum’ in the political turmoil last year. Here’s an update.
www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/publication/whitehall-monitor-2023/year-ahead

Fleurpepper Wed 08-Feb-23 15:26:57

ronib

Fleurpepper imagine what you like.
Does anyone take this issue seriously?

The National Audit Office, among others has produced a report specifically on the Civil Service and its role in Brexit. There are articles too.

You don’t ever ask Civil Servants about their work. It’s not for you to know.

Keep reading the Daily Mail if it helps you.

I don't read it! But this is a very open and public Forum, and journalists do peruse regularly, I am sure. Your recent comments would be very easily picked up, and taken for a big ride.