How soon before the next step to privatising the state schools?

My GDs perfectly ordinary state schools also provided excellent support and full teaching during Covid. One got 4A*s at A level and the other got 5x9 and 5x8 at GCSE. Not sure what advantage independent schools could have brought.
They are lucky in that they had bedrooms they could study in and access to their own computers and I agree that the home conditions of some students caused serious disadvantage.
One of the great tragedies in education was the failure to implement the Tomlinson report on education at 14-19. It would have made a huge difference, especially to vocational education.

And then the others, who, in the current circumstances, huge classes and poor funding, never ever get the opportunity to reach their potential

At last - someone who has recognised the point of the thread!

All state schools should be well enough funded by the government so that children from all backgrounds have the opportunities to reach their potential - whatever that may be.

There should be no need for state schools to have to be partly funded by the charitable efforts of parents.

Of course, no-one should stop parents from doing their bit but underfunding should not make it necessity.

volver

^I used 37 hrs a week * £20 * 48 = £35520^

Fair enough.

So she is actually doing paid physical work for 37 hours a week, spending another 5 hours a week driving or walking, another 5 hours or so eating during her working day (or maybe she just grabs a sandwich in the car?), gets no sick pay or holiday pay and is living the life of riley.

I'm sure you know your area very well indeed, but my sympathies are still with the cleaner.

I said she made a nice wage. I didn't say she lived a life of riley.

She's seemingly content running her own business, making her hours, eating her sandwich wherever and or whilst driving.

She's surely above minimum wage and near average wage.

It is a political choice- before being a parental one. In the UK, it is ingrained in centuries of history- whererease it is not in many others.

As said before several times on this thread- when the 'elites'- the rich, the politicians, top financiers and professionals, get to make that choice for their own kids- they have no incentive whatsoever to make sure the system works for all. Some do, because they realise that those inequalities lead to social problems and all sorts of issues that will affect all our lives and society at large.

In countries where state education is well funded, few choose to go to private education. In fact, those who do are known to be there because they have failed to thrive and to cope in the state system- and rich parents send them there in order to avoid having to take on apprenticeships and jobs they consider 'inferior', for a few years at least. Same for health - private means a private room, a larger TV and WiFi access, a choice of menus, and private nurse- but the same operation or treatment. How it should be.

How big are the classes people are talking about in secondary schools now? My GDs school had fixed sizes of 25 in Set1, 22 in Set2 and 18 in Set3. It had a very challenging intake but the teaching was outstanding and the assessment forensic.
Would be interested to know what the actual numbers are elsewhere.

A quick look at the data says the average in 2022 is 26 in primary and 22 in secondary.

callistemon Where is the dividing line between funding because it is 'needed' and funding because it isn't. Whys should a school fund if t is doesn't need anything.

All schools always have lists of things it would be helpful to have.

Volver the average wage is NOT £32,000. That is average Household income.

The average wage, per person, is £26,000.

Callistemon21

^And then the others, who, in the current circumstances, huge classes and poor funding, never ever get the opportunity to reach their potential^

At last - someone who has recognised the point of the thread!

All state schools should be well enough funded by the government so that children from all backgrounds have the opportunities to reach their potential - whatever that may be.

There should be no need for state schools to have to be partly funded by the charitable efforts of parents.

Of course, no-one should stop parents from doing their bit but underfunding should not make it necessity.

I agree absolutely - but this point has not just been made - it was said a lot further upthread and has been argued for several times since, in between fending off accusations of support for communism and being jealous of those who opt out of the system.

M0nica

Volver the average wage is NOT £32,000. That is average Household income.

The average wage, per person, is £26,000.

Thanks M0nica ??

M0nica

Volver the average wage is NOT £32,000. That is average Household income.

The average wage, per person, is £26,000.

Thank you!

We pay our gardener £28/ hr and that is certainly above minimum wage as well. A lovely business that is able to be family supporting.

Not everyone wants to be indoors bored at a desk, or driving a truck, or operating on patients... choices.

Doodledog

Callistemon21

And then the others, who, in the current circumstances, huge classes and poor funding, never ever get the opportunity to reach their potential

At last - someone who has recognised the point of the thread!

All state schools should be well enough funded by the government so that children from all backgrounds have the opportunities to reach their potential - whatever that may be.

There should be no need for state schools to have to be partly funded by the charitable efforts of parents.

Of course, no-one should stop parents from doing their bit but underfunding should not make it necessity.

I agree absolutely - but this point has not just been made - it was said a lot further upthread and has been argued for several times since, in between fending off accusations of support for communism and being jealous of those who opt out of the system.

And, in fact, class sizes are not huge

That was pointed on the other thread, with average numbers, which thread went round in ever-decreasing circles too until it ......... oh, never mind
?

Mamie

How big are the classes people are talking about in secondary schools now? My GDs school had fixed sizes of 25 in Set1, 22 in Set2 and 18 in Set3. It had a very challenging intake but the teaching was outstanding and the assessment forensic.
Would be interested to know what the actual numbers are elsewhere.

I did a two month stint in a secondary school earlier this year. All my classes had at least 30 pupils.

Callistemon: "And, in fact, class sizes are not huge"

Oh yes, some of them are! Unless you think 36 or 37 isn't too many.

Of course the average is lower because special needs groups are hopefully much lower. Sixth Form groups are always lower, especially for less popular subjects, such as languages. GCSE option groups are often lower too. For example, if 40 pupils choose a particular subject, there will usually be two groups of 20. The alternative would be to tell 10 pupils they can't do that subject. The standard tutor group size is 30.

volver

M0nica

Volver the average wage is NOT £32,000. That is average Household income.

The average wage, per person, is £26,000.

Thanks M0nica ??

And if that's the mean average, it's inevitable that the majority earn less than £26,000.

Every person who earns significantly more than the average skews the average.

M0nica

callistemon Where is the dividing line between funding because it is 'needed' and funding because it isn't. Whys should a school fund if t is doesn't need anything.

All schools always have lists of things it would be helpful to have.

Really? I've never seen such a list.

Mamie

A quick look at the data says the average in 2022 is 26 in primary and 22 in secondary.

Does that include non-teaching heads?

What I am saying, is that the education system, in the UK in particular, for very long hisotrical reasons- is not equal, not unbiased, and heavily squewed to lead to 'success' for some groups of people, and perpetuated.

OK, but I'm not sure I agree, just based on my own extended family's experience over several generations including some of my grandparents, my parents and their siblings, my four siblings and me, my own kids and nearly all their eleven cousins. Loads of different state schools in loads of different places in the UK and loads of not only good but bloody excellent results. Which rather suggests that there are plenty of good state schools.

Heavily skewed education is not what any state educated person I know received. I'm not just talking of my own extended family there either.

I believe someone else has mentioned Ofsted assessments of state schools on this thread being mostly good. There will always be some less than good just as there will always be some superb. Absolute equality is impossible though I agree that efforts should always be made to improve what isn't working so well.

I've kind of lost the aim of this thread now. Was it just to gripe about private schools? Or to fantasise about all schools being made private by Truss's government?

growstuff

Mamie

How big are the classes people are talking about in secondary schools now? My GDs school had fixed sizes of 25 in Set1, 22 in Set2 and 18 in Set3. It had a very challenging intake but the teaching was outstanding and the assessment forensic.
Would be interested to know what the actual numbers are elsewhere.

I did a two month stint in a secondary school earlier this year. All my classes had at least 30 pupils.

And as I mentioned earlier, an academy I worked in a year and a half ago fairly frequently combined classes and had upwards of 60 GCSE level students. The classrooms had folding doors separating them (deliberately?) and the doors would be unfolded/tables rearranged.

I couldn't believe it when I started working there and thankfully never had to teach that way myself. I lasted 3 months there. Left without a job to go to, it was so horrific. But a couple of friends had to single-handedly teach these mega classes.

Lists do not have to be written. Just PTA's asking the school what they would like them to spend the money raised to help the school on, and I have yet to meet a head teacher that didn't have one or two items from the small and trivial to the quite expensive on the tip of their tongues.

If state schools offer such a good education, why do those who approve of private education think that parents spend so much money to send their children there?

And as for exams being equal!

Private schools are allowed to teach/examine for international GCSE. Public are not.

International GCSE grades are 2 levels higher than GCSE. I'm an examiner for one of the biggest exam boards. This is a fact.

So a private school student taking IGCSE gets a 9. The equivalent at GCSE is a 7. Two grades lower. Yet both are accepted by colleges/universities. Same for international A Levels.

Doodledog

If state schools offer such a good education, why do those who approve of private education think that parents spend so much money to send their children there?

Thus why schools need more tax money. It's not down to destroying one type of schooling.

Needed is appropriate taxes, wisely spent.

Norah

Doodledog

If state schools offer such a good education, why do those who approve of private education think that parents spend so much money to send their children there?

Thus why schools need more tax money. It's not down to destroying one type of schooling.

Needed is appropriate taxes, wisely spent.

But they won't get it. Because those in power right now don't value state education.

Baggs

*What I am saying, is that the education system, in the UK in particular, for very long hisotrical reasons- is not equal, not unbiased, and heavily squewed to lead to 'success' for some groups of people, and perpetuated.*

OK, but I'm not sure I agree, just based on my own extended family's experience over several generations including some of my grandparents, my parents and their siblings, my four siblings and me, my own kids and nearly all their eleven cousins. Loads of different state schools in loads of different places in the UK and loads of not only good but bloody excellent results. Which rather suggests that there are plenty of good state schools.

Heavily skewed education is not what any state educated person I know received. I'm not just talking of my own extended family there either.

I believe someone else has mentioned Ofsted assessments of state schools on this thread being mostly good. There will always be some less than good just as there will always be some superb. Absolute equality is impossible though I agree that efforts should always be made to improve what isn't working so well.

I've kind of lost the aim of this thread now. Was it just to gripe about private schools? Or to fantasise about all schools being made private by Truss's government?

I am not talking about family history, but the history of education in Great Britain, with the century old tradition of Public (not at all!) Schools.