Electoral Reform

Surely making the UK a democracy should absolutely be his top priority?

Mollygo

Casdon, The things I’m constantly reading about on GN- e.g. PR, being willing to say that a woman is an AHF are all unimportant in the great scheme of things except on GN then. Thanks for letting me know.

Some people do talk and think a lot about specific issues on Gransnet of course, and that doesn’t necessarily reflect the priorities of society as a whole. I’m just thinking of the agenda that will face the Labour Party in power, and I think it’s more important to get the country back on an even keel economically, socially, and dare I say improve morality in public life before considering wholesale electoral reform.

Electoral reform is fundamental. It is about basic democracy, fairness, every vote being of equal value.

Without that we are not a democratic country and a government elected by a minority of voters has no moral authority.

varian

Surely making the UK a democracy should absolutely be his top priority?

The UK is a democracy already varian, just not one using your preferred electoral system.

In a democracy a government can only be elected by the consent of a majority (NOT A MINORITY) of voters.

Perhaps Keir Starmer is not backing changing the UK voting system because it’s not a priority at the moment. He can only do this by being in power
He would want to get an outright majority on the present system. Changing the FPTP will look as if he will do anything to get Labour in power and probably doesn’t fancy the idea of hung parliaments. He has made his feelings about the SNP very clear

Normandygirl

There are so many electoral reforms I would like to see but proportional representation would be a good start. I hope that the ridiculous whip system would go as well and Mp's could at last freely represent the people and not the party.

Agree about the whip system. I'd like MPs to be able to vote how they wished on all issues to represent their constituents' views.
In many ways I think this would be a better reform that PR.

rosie1959

Perhaps Keir Starmer is not backing changing the UK voting system because it’s not a priority at the moment. He can only do this by being in power
He would want to get an outright majority on the present system. Changing the FPTP will look as if he will do anything to get Labour in power and probably doesn’t fancy the idea of hung parliaments. He has made his feelings about the SNP very clear

I think Keir Starmer is betting on the Tories being so unpopular at the time of the next election that Labour can win on the basis of a minority vote.

Is he a democrat?

varian

In a democracy a government can only be elected by the consent of a majority (NOT A MINORITY) of voters.

That is a very purist view of what a democracy is.

As is my wont, I looked up what was available about the UK, here is the YouGov survey which is interesting.
yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2020/12/04/how-democratic-uk

Mamardoit

varian

The narrow majority for Leave in the EU referendum was brought about by lies, cheating and roreign interference and the vote would have been annulled had it been mandatory.

In a true democracy a major constitutional reform would always require a supermajority. Brexit was inflicted upon us by a minority of the electorate. David Cameron has a lot to answer for.

One thing we do agree on is that David Cameron has a lot to answer for. What a pity it was Nick Clegg who handed him the keys of number 10. The Lib Dems had the best chance yet of getting PR and they cocked it up.

We need compulsory voting at GE (with a none of the above box), and postal voting only for those who really need it. A postal vote shouldn't be a choice for those who can get to the polling station. Personally I think we should have to show ID to vote too.

Marmadoit

Agree with most of what you say apart from the bit about ID.
Postal votes cause distortion in the votes as you can't be certain someone has voted freely without the undue influence of another person. Much easier to be sure when voting is done in the privacy of an electoral booth.
ID is problematic because it unfairly discriminates against poorer people. One compromise might be to have to take your voting card with you to polling stations. But, in any case, there is absolutely no evidence of widespread fraud at polling stations, unlike in the postal voting system.

Listen to Labour MP Clive Lewis telling us why PR should be a priority.

www.facebook.com/watch/?v=458444976071190&link_id=1&can_id=1034eefb8f8351f82f963c5485142d81&source=email-why-we-need-pr&email_referrer=email_1683356___subject_2167646&email_subject=why-we-need-proportional-representation

The ten biggest problems with First Past The Post

www.makevotesmatter.org.uk/first-past-the-post?link_id=0&can_id=1034eefb8f8351f82f963c5485142d81&source=email-first-past-the-post-2&email_referrer=email_1680276&email_subject=first-past-the-post

I think it’s more important to get the country back on an even keel economically, socially, and dare I say improve morality in public life before considering wholesale electoral reform.

Much as I would like PR I'm in agreement with Casdon here.

Cart before horse. * Maizie*

There is no morality, no democracy,
no social justice in being ruled be an unchallenged right wing dictatorship elected by a minority.

"The PR vote in Liverpool was a hard won victory - but it’s the beginning of the road on democratic reform, not the end. "

www.compassonline.org.uk/discussion/

The people rejected a form of PR in the referendum of the coalition. I'm wary of changing the system because I fear very right wing parties gaining significant seats in Parliament. The Faragists could have gained over the Tories and Labour in some circumstances. Of course, one might argue every shade of opinion should have a voice but remember Hitler gained power through the ballot box albeit corruptly.

We shouldn't be wary of any system that better represents the people. If most people vote for Farage and his like, then we get Farage and his like. So what we have to do is to have an educated and enlightened enough electorate that they don't vote in large numbers for Farage and his like.

But you don't get a better country by saying we can't have such and such a system of government because I don't agree with what might be decided.

Keir Starmer is not only fighting the Tories; he is fighting the press too. He will not say anything about PR, except perhaps once the manifesto has gone to the printers - maybe not even then. Starmer is very aware of the world in which he works, and he's nobody's fool. Why would he open himself up to the lies and misdirection from the newspapers telling us we are too stupid to use PR; it's too complicated. Just as they did with AVC. As Leader of the Opposition, he can't do anything. He needs to get into government to make changes. He can't let anything distract from the LP doing just that.

The Labour Party is so far ahead in the polls so surelt Kier Starmer can afford to be honest

He's not being dishonest varian; he is being strategic. Do you really think this lead will last all the way up to an election?

You either want your leaders with a brain or you want the Liz Trusses of this world.

Who wants Liz Truss?

I think you were being unfair to suggest being strategic was being dishonest varian. If all goes as we would both want the LP will need the Lib Dems and the Lib Dems will need the LP.

I don't think the country wants another Liz Truss. The problem at the moment is how do you get this one out of No 10.

varian

The Labour Party is so far ahead in the polls so surelt Kier Starmer can afford to be honest

What you’re saying varian is that he should do this because you believe it’s the right thing for him to do, but you don’t vote for him, so you can’t really expect him as the Labour leader to do this because it suits the Liberal Democrat agenda.
I think he is being honest, the country is in one massive mess, and this is not a top priority for the country just now.

Perhaps I didn't vote for him Casdon but the representatives of the people who do vote for him voted conclusively at their recent conference to change to a PR electoral system.

They weren’t the voters representatives varian, it was the party members and TU representatives. A large number of motions were put forward, and supported or not - the hard part is deciding which of them warrant the most urgent action given that the country is up the creek without a paddle.