Do you think Russia will close its border as people try to flee?

If the borders are closed there may be an uprising within Russia - maybe that would be the best outcome.

I think it’s likely that the borders will be closed if people continue to leave.

Casdon

If the borders are closed there may be an uprising within Russia - maybe that would be the best outcome.

I agree Casdon putting a stop to Putin has to come from inside Russia,this may well be the starting point.

Closing the borders would be a clear admission that everything is not going well in Ukraine and that the only way to get soldiers into the army is offer them no alternative.

It would be an admission to people in Russia and the world, that all is not going well, so I suspect he will keep the borders open as long as he can.

Given how low morale in the Russiam army is - and a lot of the Russian failure in Ukraine is due to Russian soldiers not bothering to put up a fight and to just retreat unless they have overwhelming power, I cannot see how pulling back into the army unwilling reservists is going to help.

I was under the impression it was very difficult to leave Russia.

I was just reading that any protesters in Russia were arrested and immediately given conscription notices, so basically straight from jail into the army. I don't think these will be the most enthusiastic soldiers for the Russian cause.

What a disaster it all is, and I hope that the Ukraine people will stay strong.

In the meantime, what are the options for the 'West', including the UK ?

In the words of an acquaintance, copied elsewhere:

'I guess we finally get to the point of this thread. What are the options to responding to RU use of nuclear weapons.

1. Do nothing and let RU use them. Probably not possible as they don't want to allow use of nukes to be normalized and used without penalty
2. Respond with nuclear attack. Too escalatory.
3. More sanctions - already used a lot, but maybe more, but probably not enough of a response
4. Conventional attack on RU nuclear targets e.g. Kalingrad. Escalatory with the risk of getting out of control.
5. Giving nuclear to UA to deter. Not sure of legal ability to do this and also commitments against proliferation.
6. Longer term play but call for long term nuclear disarmament of RU. Probably to happen in event of change in RU leadership. Unlikely to succeed.
7. Move more NATO air defence systems into Europe and UA.
8. Anything else?

In short, I didn't see a whole lot of good options available. '

Many of us knew very well in the 70s already, that MAD (mutual assured destruction) would only work for a relatively short time, until 1, 2 or more mad men (perhaps women) crazy for power, would take the chance. This even more now we have much more precise tactical weapons that can me aimed at much more precise targets.

MADNESS - and there is, as said above, NO solution.

There's a lot of talk about what countries are supposed to do with Russian refugees. Some countries are refusing to take them. Unlikely that they'll be very welcome anywhere.

Why? Surely everyone will respect the fact they have chosen not to become involved in that terrible war?

All Russians cannot be held responsible for Putin’s atrocities surely? Admiration for leaving their homeland, a very difficult decision but proof they no longer want any association with Russia.

The receiving countries are under massive pressure already because of the hundreds of thousands of Ukrainian refugees they have taken in. It may be an infrastructure failure, not an unwillingness to support the Russians who don’t want to fight?

Fleurpepper

Why? Surely everyone will respect the fact they have chosen not to become involved in that terrible war?

I think that they are being accused of hypocrisy. That they were happy enough when others were being killed in Ukraine, possibly even cheering their country on, but not so keen on doing it themselves.
Also being criticised for not protesting against the war while in Russia ( but I think it took some very brave people to do that).

MaizieD

Fleurpepper

Why? Surely everyone will respect the fact they have chosen not to become involved in that terrible war?

I think that they are being accused of hypocrisy. That they were happy enough when others were being killed in Ukraine, possibly even cheering their country on, but not so keen on doing it themselves.
Also being criticised for not protesting against the war while in Russia ( but I think it took some very brave people to do that).

Anyone blamin them for not protesting would be showing total ignorance of the realities of Russia today!

Kalu

All Russians cannot be held responsible for Putin’s atrocities surely? Admiration for leaving their homeland, a very difficult decision but proof they no longer want any association with Russia.

And they may never be able to return to Russia unless there is a drastic regime change. Not without risking their and their families safety, anyway.
In fact, their family remaining in Russia are probably in greater danger now.

I've heard that the 'safest' way to avoid conscription in Russia is probably to pay a doctor to certify you as unfit. Apparently that's how those who can afford it avoid having to do military service in the first place.

Anyone blaming them for not protesting would be showing total ignorance of the realities of Russia today!

I did sort of say that, I think...

glammanana

I was under the impression it was very difficult to leave Russia.

Not at all. They can travel to all the ex communist countries.
I had several Russian neighbours in Bulgaria.
You come across lots of Russian tourists in the ski resorts. They practically own Montenegro. Israel has a lot of Russian tourists, and then let’s not forget London ?

Baltic States have closed their borders to escaping Russians. Like it or not they're not going to be as well received as the poor Ukrainians.

I don’t think any country should deny entry to Russian men fleeing the draft. That said, I do wonder about a mindset that blithely supports the war - even given the fact that Russian media has grossly misrepresented it - until it comes to their own doorstep. The Russian people supported Putin until he announced the mobilisation. What does that say - other than they support it as long as someone else is going to fight ?

Pammie1

I don’t think any country should deny entry to Russian men fleeing the draft. That said, I do wonder about a mindset that blithely supports the war - even given the fact that Russian media has grossly misrepresented it - until it comes to their own doorstep. The Russian people supported Putin until he announced the mobilisation. What does that say - other than they support it as long as someone else is going to fight ?

Do you think that’s true? I’m inclined to believe that the majority of Russians have been, and are too scared of the repercussions to defy authority. It’s never been like the UK where you can freely voice your opinions.

I can understand considerable apprehension among the people of the Baltic States. Memories are long. It's all a sad business. It's hard to believe how far this cartoon bad guy has taken things. Putin is just plain evil.

Casdon

Pammie1

I don’t think any country should deny entry to Russian men fleeing the draft. That said, I do wonder about a mindset that blithely supports the war - even given the fact that Russian media has grossly misrepresented it - until it comes to their own doorstep. The Russian people supported Putin until he announced the mobilisation. What does that say - other than they support it as long as someone else is going to fight ?

Do you think that’s true? I’m inclined to believe that the majority of Russians have been, and are too scared of the repercussions to defy authority. It’s never been like the UK where you can freely voice your opinions.

I know what you mean. The Russian people have been fed Putins’ propaganda since the start and it’s only now with mobilisation that the people are waking up to what’s really happening. That’s what I find hard to swallow - while the armed forces have been fighting the war they seem to have had support from the Russian people, but now that ordinary Russians are being drafted, it’s a different story. Hard to know what’s really going on inside the country.

MaizieD

^Anyone blaming them for not protesting would be showing total ignorance of the realities of Russia today!^

I did sort of say that, I think...

Yes you did, was just confirming.

A family friend was one of the 5 men released via Saudi Arabia last week. I did not recognise him
. You have to wonder when they had been given the death sentence why were they released? Have more Russian Army leaders been captured than we have been told and are they key to getting all these conscripts battle ready?
Surely no country would turn away the ones who are fleeing the conscription.
I can see no way other than tighter sanctions in stopping Putin. A bully has to be faced but who wants to start using nuclear weapons?

Aveline
It all depends how much you want to pay ? to get over those borders. In my own experience all the borders in these areas are open to corruption.
It’s a different world over there.