Eddie Izzard

If we had men and women and transmen and transwomen, with equal treatment for all, would that be so bad?

Doodledog, I wholeheartedly agree. I have never accepted you can change biological sex no matter how much you want to but I know I would want to be sympathetically treated no matter what I "identified" as. It horrifies me that people are abused for the way they choose to dress and they lifestyle they want to lead where it doesn't hurt anyone else. I certainly want to stick up for my rights as a woman but it doesn't mean I can't see modifications that could be made to protect us all as far as that can be achieved. .

Excellent article, Margot, and great post petunia.

Nothing to say about how your thread about Truss doesn't contravene your 'feminists shouldn't 'dis' other women' philosophy, Glorianny?

ICHTB your posts are always considered, and I understand that you are looking out for a loved one, which is bound to mean that you have a different perspective. I still believe, however, that the best solution is to work towards accepting transpeople for what they are, so there is nothing unusual about a man in a dress using a male lavatory (and the same for women in 'male dress', whatever that is). Pretending that men are women and women are men is what causes the problems - far more than the fact that some people want to be the opposite sex.

If we had men and women and transmen and transwomen, with equal treatment for all, would that be so bad? It might disrupt the autogynephiles' fantasies that they 'are' women, but if you can't please all of the people all of the time, you might as well please some of the people some of the time, etc.

^Well I've read enough to know that autogynephilia is a concept formed in the '80s. which had no research behind it, and which subsequent research and studies have proved to be erroneous and which is now firmly rejected by most experts.
As for the sexual fantasies of other people it is widely known that people's fantasies are rarely enacted and seldom bear any relationship to reality. There are quite a few women whose^

You're talking dangerous nonsense Glorianny, and one has to wonder why you'd do so. The concept of autogynephilia has been under attack by the trans lobby, particularly by trans researcher Julia Serano, but is more widely accepted now than ever before — partly because what we've started seeing so much of it in the last few years.

For anyone who wants to understand about it, there are innumerable places to start. I've randomly googled a few:

www.karger.com/Article/Abstract/328921. This provides a basic definition of what it is.

Here's an article by trans woman Debbie Hayton talking about his own autogynephilia. Debbie knows he's male and doesn't object to male pronouns:
unherd.com/2022/05/the-truth-about-autogynephilia/

Ray Blanchard first came up with the classification 'autogynephilia' to describe the behaviours and thoughts of some of his patients. Here's a podcast about his theories:
gender-a-wider-lens.captivate.fm/episode/61-pioneers-series-autogynephilia-myth-and-meaning-with-ray-blanchard

Rosie51

icanhandthemback However, I do think the facilities should be completely contained so that there can be no means of any funny business and that women (of either sex) are safe. women of either sex? You don't consider women to be an exclusive sex class? Should we use female at all times to denote we are talking about 'women' with female biology? Ladies toilets were created to allow women to have single sex provision and free them from the 'urinary leash', allowing them to become mixed sex will put the leash back on women from some faiths and cultures.

What I want and what I am likely to get are two very different things. I think I probably used the wrong terminology (I am so new to this) and when I wrote either sex I meant women at birth and trans women, the latter also need to be safe and possibly face the same violence that birth women face from men.
As I have consistently said, my worries are more about the safety aspect which IMO can be handled by making all cubicles safer. I realise other people will see this differently and I respect their views. I am certainly not against single sex facilities but I really don't see the right designs of mixed sex use as putting us back on a urinary leash.

You're welcome. I started out a few years ago trying to be kind to transwomen and then the penny began to drop that many of them say they want to be women but have zero respect for real women and our rights — in fact some (the autogynephiles) seem to hate us because our existence reminds them they're not the genuine article. Then I read Helen Joyce's book and others about all the damage being done to young lesbians and autistic women who are having their breasts cut off and other barbaric surgeries and now I don't give a damn.

There are two sexes, male and female, and you can't change sex. I'm fine with Eddie Izzard wearing a frock and lipstick and being gender-nonconforming. Gender non-conforming is great, we're too trapped in gender stereotypes. But he's not a woman and he needs to respect women's boundaries.

If men create problems for themselves they need to solve them themselves. It's not up to women to make space for them.

MargotLedbetter

Mollygo

Perhaps admitting that by using the women's toilet openly and carefully Eddie did no one any harm at all is too much of a step.
You only think that, because you deliberately ignore the very valid reasons why it is not true-but that’s your problem, not mine.

If it was done for publicity it has certainly worked. That says it all.
I’m going to do this to prove I can and I neither know nor care whether it upsets anyone else Great attitude for a would be politician.

But try to do it without being personal, misconstruing, misrepresenting or otherwise attacking me.
These attacks? What attacks? Do you mean disagreeing with you on the matter of female rights and male wrongdoing?

I'll have so much more respect for you if you do. ???
Since your posts indicate you do respect men like EI and those TIM who consider their rights override those of females, you might understand why your possible lack of respect for me is unimportant.

Google the word autogynephilia and then spend half an hour reading about it. Read about paraphilias/ fetishes. Read about men who take used sanitary pads from bins to wear themselves in the pretence that they are women. Read about cross-dressing men who fantasise about assisting schoolgirls to insert tampons. Read about the men who get a sexual thrill from just hearing a woman peeing in the cubicle next door.

When an older man with a wife and children suddenly decides he's a woman in a man's body and starts cross-dressing, it's rarely some deep-seated dysphoric issue, it's usually because he's been watching sissy-porn (google at your own peril) on the internet. This is about sexual thrills and fantasy — and the fantasies are all demeaning to women. When a cross-dressing man enters a women's loo or changing room, the women in there aren't real people to him, they're just props in his fantasy.

Well I've read enough to know that autogynephilia is a concept formed in the '80s. which had no research behind it, and which subsequent research and studies have proved to be erroneous and which is now firmly rejected by most experts.
As for the sexual fantasies of other people it is widely known that people's fantasies are rarely enacted and seldom bear any relationship to reality. There are quite a few women whose
fantasy is rape. No one (I hope) thinks they really want to be raped. Still if those things entertain you...
As for the middle aged man with children. One of the first people to openly discuss their trans status was Jan Morris, writer and broadcaster, she had children and was married. I doubt if porn was the reason she transitioned it was hard to get hold of then. (1970s)

MargoLedbetter Thank you for that link ✊?

Petunia, when you write this:

On the one hand I have full sympathy with someone who has struggled with their sexuality and I feel that they need understanding and consideration.

you create confusion. Sexuality is about sexual attraction, not about gender or identity issues. People struggling with their sexuality are lesbian, gay and bisexual people. It has nothing to do with the vast majority of cross-dressing or transgender people, who either suffer from dysphoria or autogynephilia.

Has anyone here read Trans by Helen Joyce? If not, it's the best book on the subject and covers a lot of ground. Helen Joyce is/ was a senior journalist on The Economist: she's a serious, meticulous investigator. It's sometimes available for 99p on Kindle.

No punches pulled, eh? As Brendan O'Neil says, no decent man goes into a women's loo or changing room. The men who do are the men who absolutely need to be kept out.

Lots of transgender people — Debbie Hayton, Miranda Yardley, others whose names escape me at the moment — don't use women's loos out of respect for women. The men we encounter in women's loos are the ones who have no respect for us.

Excellent article MargotLedbetter

Eddie-bless him. He's the gift that keeps on giving. Such entertainment value!

But off at a slight tangent-what actually is a transwoman? If we cant define exactly what a transwoman is, we surely cant agree to any inclusion into women's spaces and activities.

On the one hand I have full sympathy with someone who has struggled with their sexuality and I feel that they need understanding and consideration. Then I will see yet another abhorrent article about a violent, abusive middle aged/older man who when caught for some hideous sexual assault has a eureka moment and realises, as he's about to be sent down, that he's been a woman all along and can he please go to a woman's prison. And once there, goes on to initiate a sexual relationship with a vulnerable woman. Is that man a transwoman? Is it someone who used to be regarded as a transexual, someone who had all the drugs and all the surgeries and tried to fit in. Maybe its someone who outwardly looks a bit like a woman, has had all the drugs, dresses as a woman but retains his penis. Or is it an Eddie type character, who used to be known as a cross dresser, who now gains publicity when he claims to be in girl mode. The autogynephile perhaps, who exhibits his particular fetish, is he a transwoman.

Even harder, what about the part time transwomen? The Pippa Bunces of the world or the Alex Drummond types showing women how to expand the bandwidth of being a woman. Could it be a drag queen offering a hyper sexualised parody of being a woman. Or a Kayla Lemieux, threatening to take a students eye out with the hugely prominent nipples on his gigantic fake breasts. Are they all transwomen? And if all the above are transwomen, and transwomen are real women, these individuals are actually women. What a chilling thought.

So is there a “right “ sort of transwoman that we should welcome into women's spaces. Or do we have to welcome all of the above or just some of them. If women only areas are opened up to all transwomen, how do women know which sort of transwoman is standing by the mirror applying lipstick.

Try a man's take on Eddie's behaviour:

www.spiked-online.com/2022/10/02/eddie-izzard-was-born-male-and-he-will-die-male/

Women of either sex??

I missed that. No, there are women (who are female) and transwomen (who are male). Both may live their lives as they choose, wear and be called what they like, and do whatever suits them as regards so-called 'gender'. That won't alter their biology, however, as that can't be altered, and that is what determines their sex.

Mollygo

Perhaps admitting that by using the women's toilet openly and carefully Eddie did no one any harm at all is too much of a step.
You only think that, because you deliberately ignore the very valid reasons why it is not true-but that’s your problem, not mine.

If it was done for publicity it has certainly worked. That says it all.
I’m going to do this to prove I can and I neither know nor care whether it upsets anyone else Great attitude for a would be politician.

But try to do it without being personal, misconstruing, misrepresenting or otherwise attacking me.
These attacks? What attacks? Do you mean disagreeing with you on the matter of female rights and male wrongdoing?

I'll have so much more respect for you if you do. ???
Since your posts indicate you do respect men like EI and those TIM who consider their rights override those of females, you might understand why your possible lack of respect for me is unimportant.

Google the word autogynephilia and then spend half an hour reading about it. Read about paraphilias/ fetishes. Read about men who take used sanitary pads from bins to wear themselves in the pretence that they are women. Read about cross-dressing men who fantasise about assisting schoolgirls to insert tampons. Read about the men who get a sexual thrill from just hearing a woman peeing in the cubicle next door.

When an older man with a wife and children suddenly decides he's a woman in a man's body and starts cross-dressing, it's rarely some deep-seated dysphoric issue, it's usually because he's been watching sissy-porn (google at your own peril) on the internet. This is about sexual thrills and fantasy — and the fantasies are all demeaning to women. When a cross-dressing man enters a women's loo or changing room, the women in there aren't real people to him, they're just props in his fantasy.

icanhandthemback However, I do think the facilities should be completely contained so that there can be no means of any funny business and that women (of either sex) are safe. women of either sex? You don't consider women to be an exclusive sex class? Should we use female at all times to denote we are talking about 'women' with female biology? Ladies toilets were created to allow women to have single sex provision and free them from the 'urinary leash', allowing them to become mixed sex will put the leash back on women from some faiths and cultures.

The way it shortened my post on the thread list was not my choice, whatever you might think. ??

G
it is very clear that you have no respect for anyone on these threads
Excellent self-description Glorianny. ??
I suppose you’d call that an attack-except that you said it yourself.
Males are not and never will be female.

Males have no place in female only spaces.

The actions of some TIM and publicity seekers like IE have damaged the image of all TIM and made that fact even more important.

Still feminists support other women don't they? yes feminists support other women, want them kept safe, want their dignity preserved, want all, even those of different faiths and cultures to themselves, to be able to participate in activities and sports, want their hard won rights preserved. Then you have some women who will insist that men are women because they say they are, that men should be able to take awards set aside for women because they say they're a woman, even if only on a part-time basis. They agree that men who are failing in their own sex class in sports should, if they feel they are women, compete alongside women and take the prizes. Somehow the women they promote most are always the ones who have male biology but feel like or identify as women. Women don't 'identify' as women, they are women.

MargotLedbetter

icanhandthemback

I don't have a problem with Eddie Izzard using a cubicle in the ladies toilets providing he sits down and leaves it clean. I somehow doubt he is a prolific sex offender or is bothered by what the other women using the facilities are doing. However, I do think the facilities should be completely contained so that there can be no means of any funny business and that women (of either sex) are safe.
What I'd like to see is that the conversation is had that women are protected from deviants and a blue print for any premises offering mixed sex toilets so that women can feel safe. Anybody using Disabled toilets will have been "sharing" their toilet for years.

So you're okay with Eddie Izzard, but you're not okay with 'deviants'. Can you tell me how I'm to know the difference please? Because one quick look at EI and I know I'm dealing with a man, despite the dress. How do I tell, when I encounter a man in the Ladies, whether he's the right kind of cross-dresser or not?

I'll answer that myself. I can't, you can't, no one can. There's an easy solution, and that's to keep any male-sexed person out of women's loos. As we've done for the last two centuries. Problem solved.

I also suggest you google the word autogynephilia which will explain why a certain sort of cross-dresser gets a kick out of being where he shouldn't be.

Perfectly summarised.

We've had this conversation before.

No, I don't think that feminists need to agree with all other women just because of their sex. Support their right to live on the same terms as men, yes - but there is a difference between support and agreement.

Also, you are deciding the grounds on which I don't think you respect women - some of those grounds are part of a greater whole, and others are inaccurate, but in any case, it was simply a response to your own comment that you don't respect the 'gender critical' on here, and I'm not getting diverted down that road for a number of reasons.

Anyway, haven't you just started a thread 'dissing' Liz Truss?

icanhandthemback

I don't have a problem with Eddie Izzard using a cubicle in the ladies toilets providing he sits down and leaves it clean. I somehow doubt he is a prolific sex offender or is bothered by what the other women using the facilities are doing. However, I do think the facilities should be completely contained so that there can be no means of any funny business and that women (of either sex) are safe.
What I'd like to see is that the conversation is had that women are protected from deviants and a blue print for any premises offering mixed sex toilets so that women can feel safe. Anybody using Disabled toilets will have been "sharing" their toilet for years.

So you're okay with Eddie Izzard, but you're not okay with 'deviants'. Can you tell me how I'm to know the difference please? Because one quick look at EI and I know I'm dealing with a man, despite the dress. How do I tell, when I encounter a man in the Ladies, whether he's the right kind of cross-dresser or not?

I'll answer that myself. I can't, you can't, no one can. There's an easy solution, and that's to keep any male-sexed person out of women's loos. As we've done for the last two centuries. Problem solved.

I also suggest you google the word autogynephilia which will explain why a certain sort of cross-dresser gets a kick out of being where he shouldn't be.

Oh dear the first paragraph says you don't subscribe to the "who is the best feminist" concept then you completely "dis" me in the last.

If you want an example of a personal attack there it is.

Apparently because I would tell women that predatory men will choose their place and time to attack and some loos are more dangerous than others. Because I would warn them that other groups of women can be dangerous, and ask them to take responsibility for themselves, and look after others, in certain circumstances, I don't respect women. Of course I do. I respect and care for them enough to know that all the proselytising and preaching about transwomen will not keep any of them any safer, whereas a simple warning about staying alert, and staying with friends, has kept many safe.

Still feminists support other women don't they?

Oh come on the competition for "we are the best feminists" is at least faintly amusing, particularly as this discussion is all (or mostly) women.
I'm not in any competition to be 'the best feminist'. I couldn't care less who is the best feminist, as that is subjective and, more importantly, not the subject of the thread. If someone started a thread on competitive feminism I probably wouldn't post on it.

Or are you subscribing to the old chestnut that women have no sense of humour?
No. That's a bit of a leap. I just object to having someone's fears or concerns ridiculed. I would feel the same if the subject were spiders - you are the one making this about feminism, not me.

As far as Izzard leading the way for all men to use the Ladies hasn't it been posted many times that "my son/husband wouldn't do that". Is the sight of Izzard emerging from the Ladies going to change them all? No, but (for the 26715th time) that's not the point. My husband (I'll use him as an example, as I introduced the argument you are trying to trash) doesn't use the Ladies. He is respectful of people, and knows that his presence there would be uncomfortable for a lot of women. EI is not a role model for him, so what EI does won't influence Mr Dog in any way. I'm guessing that most men are similar in outlook. However. There are men who are not like him, and who don't care about women. Some (shock horror) actively dislike women, and others want to attack them. If men are allowed in the Ladies, where women are vulnerable (on account of being alone in an enclosed space with their knickers down) then these men have a good opportunity to do so. Got it yet?

If you can't see the attacks perhaps you need to examine what you consider acceptable as legitimate criticism of ideas and what you consider personal.
If you can't point to an example, please stop flinging around unsubstantiated accusations? I certainly don't set out to make personal attacks. I get frustrated sometimes at having to respond to the same thing over and over (see above about 'not all men') and the 'gotcha's are irritating when serious points are routinely ignored, but on the whole I sigh, grit my teeth and respond as politely as I can. Tell me where that is personal, and I'll know what you are on about. Disagreement is not personal attack.

Finally (and this may be close to getting personal, but it is in direct response to a comment of your own), it is very clear that you have no respect for anyone on these threads - in fact it is difficult to see where you have respect for women at all, so please forgive me if I don't try to court your respect - it would be too hard won for me.

Perhaps admitting that by using the women's toilet openly and carefully Eddie did no one any harm at all is too much of a step.
You only think that, because you deliberately ignore the very valid reasons why it is not true-but that’s your problem, not mine.

If it was done for publicity it has certainly worked. That says it all.
I’m going to do this to prove I can and I neither know nor care whether it upsets anyone else Great attitude for a would be politician.

But try to do it without being personal, misconstruing, misrepresenting or otherwise attacking me.
These attacks? What attacks? Do you mean disagreeing with you on the matter of female rights and male wrongdoing?

I'll have so much more respect for you if you do. ???
Since your posts indicate you do respect men like EI and those TIM who consider their rights override those of females, you might understand why your possible lack of respect for me is unimportant.

Dooodledog as you have said, this is what it is all about:*

when we are vulnerable, or when privacy and dignity are compromised