Are young people turning gay?

We cross posted, VS, and have said a lot of the same things.

VS
You must not have the strength of conviction you need to be right to engage in discussion this way.
This is one of your typical arguments VS. If you don’t like an answer that mentions something you have said previously, you deny it by claiming it’s not what you meant, then accuse the poster of not engaging in discussion in the way that you like.
You support binders (unless you’ve changed your mind), without mentioning the word “manufactured”, including those once handed out indiscriminately by Lush. I think binders have the potential to cause irreversible harm, and that ALL binders and providers, especially the “official” ones should not be recommended as safe or safer and come with that warning. Whether or not girls will look up some even more dangerous practices on the internet is no excuse for recommending or supporting a dangerous practice as you you have appeared to do.

I've explained my reasoning many times Mollygo and I don't promote them

doodledog I don't read past assumptions about what I think or mean. How many times do I have to say that?

If you don't want me to bring it up, stop doing it... simple really pose it as a non personal question like

"VS what do you think about xyz" and I will answer

Once pipes were recommended as a “safer” alternative to cigarettes. We now know that’s not true.

They cause less lung cancer but more mouth and throat cancer.

“Safer” is such a dangerous belief when it’s not based in research and fact, but is just a belief. Especially when it’s then stated as a fact to the vulnerable.

I’m afraid I’m a cynic. Mermaids promoting buying commercial binders with the “safer” tag line.I wonder what the payback was. I hope it’s fully investigated.

“Follow the money”

It's all relative I suppose

Does anyone have any suggestions for how we stop the use of binders at all?

What if we could somehow determine who is wearing a binders and prevent them and denying that led to more asking for surgery as soon as it was legal to do so and regretting it?

Would that meant making it illegal to have gender reassignment surgery?

What if that meant a huge increase in suicide?

It's just not that simple

Why does it get proffered about an assumed huge rise in suicides if affirmation and interventions aren't applied? We're constantly told there has always been this incidence of transpeople and the massive increase in numbers visible is solely because of acceptance these days. Historically suicide rates amongst children and adolescents, when they got zero support and affirmation, weren't huge, so why would there be an assumption they'd explode now?

www.gendergp.com/what-is-the-transgender-suicide-rate/

Because the studies already exist

That's one report from a biased group. Without revealing robust data and its collection methods, which they don't include, their statements are baseless.
I can't be the only one who in the worst angst of adolescence briefly mused suicide? Not with any real or attempted intent but if asked had I ever entertained it, my answer would have been yes. They don't reveal how and where they obtained their control data. Children with autism have a higher suicide rate than their neurotypical peers, and that will include confused, questioning children.

Pressed post too soon. Meant to quote this from my previous post Historically suicide rates amongst children and adolescents, when they got zero support and affirmation to be transgender, weren't huge

The "biased groups" aren't the ones who do the research and aren't the only ones reporting on it

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5178031/#__ffn_sectitle

www.theguardian.com/society/2014/nov/19/young-transgender-suicide-attempts-survey

www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/transgender-teens-7-6-times-more-likely-to-attempt-suicide

More recent

Also you can always fact check sources of information

VioletSky

Does anyone have any suggestions for how we stop the use of binders at all?

*Does anyone claim to do so?
A good start would be not recommending them, reporting the potential harm done by any AND by not suggesting some are safer without qualifying clearly how they are safer and stating they are still potentially harmful.
If people don’t realise that using duct tape on skin is harmful before they do it, they’ll soon learn. Then they’ll be more likely to be sucked into your ‘safer’ argument. Certainly fabric is unlikely to harm your skin like duct tape, but its action on breast tissues will be no less dangerous.

But people will bind regardless, so obviously we need another solution...

"Binding" started before "binders" were created

VS The first link is 6 years old, the Guardian article is more than 7 years old. The last link will not let me through unless I accept all cookies, something I never do. The two I could access didn't give raw data.
This report by Samaritans makes for interesting reading. Could it be loneliness is the biggest factor in young suicide? www.samaritans.org/about-samaritans/research-policy/young-people-suicide/

VioletSky

But people will bind regardless, so obviously we need another solution...

"Binding" started before "binders" were created.
Another “it was already happening” excuse.
What’s your solution? Are you still saying damaging products should be promoted as safer?

Can't help you then Rosie, perhaps Google "trans suicide statistics" for yourself and see if there is something you trust. The government has several more recent studies

Molly

www.mentalhealthtoday.co.uk/transgender-youths-who-self-harm-perspectives-from-those-seeking-support

Mollygo

VioletSky

But people will bind regardless, so obviously we need another solution...

"Binding" started before "binders" were created.
Another “it was already happening” excuse.
What’s your solution? Are you still saying damaging products should be promoted as safer?

I don't have a solution no.

That's why I asked

Games night.

Have a nice evening all

There have been concerns raised about the use of suicide statistics in this debate, the rate of suicide appears to increase following transition. I say appears and am very wary of saying this because the long term follow ups have been really poor, again one of the findings of the cass report.

VioletSky

Mollygo

VioletSky

But people will bind regardless, so obviously we need another solution...

"Binding" started before "binders" were created.
Another “it was already happening” excuse.
What’s your solution? Are you still saying damaging products should be promoted as safer?

I don't have a solution no.

That's why I asked

It is virtually impossible to stop any sort of behaviour. Laws, punishments, social pressure - none of these things will stop people from doing what they want to do, if they want to do it badly enough.

So no, there is no way to stop children binding; but there are ways to make that more difficult, such as by making it a criminal offence to provide binders, in the same way as it is an offence to sell alcohol to children, or to sell certain drugs to anyone. Of course that doesn't prevent the sale of drugs and booze by criminals, but it flags up that it is not acceptable, and the illegality will deter the law-abiding.

VS so you are still saying that binders should be promoted as safe. And you work with children.
As you are so fond of saying
Oh dear.

Doodledog

VioletSky

Mollygo

VioletSky

But people will bind regardless, so obviously we need another solution...

"Binding" started before "binders" were created.
Another “it was already happening” excuse.
What’s your solution? Are you still saying damaging products should be promoted as safer?

I don't have a solution no.

That's why I asked

It is virtually impossible to stop any sort of behaviour. Laws, punishments, social pressure - none of these things will stop people from doing what they want to do, if they want to do it badly enough.

So no, there is no way to stop children binding; but there are ways to make that more difficult, such as by making it a criminal offence to provide binders, in the same way as it is an offence to sell alcohol to children, or to sell certain drugs to anyone. Of course that doesn't prevent the sale of drugs and booze by criminals, but it flags up that it is not acceptable, and the illegality will deter the law-abiding.

Really! That's what you believe? Of course it doesn't. There are thousands of people using illegal drugs everyday. Some of them are respectable citizens, some of them are poor addicts. Guess who gets caught and goes to prison.
It's a ridiculous analogy anyway. People were binding long before binders were commercially available and would continue to do so if they were illegal. Perhaps we could make bandages and duct tape illegal as well?

Which bit of my post do you find ‘ridiculous’?

That making something illegal deters (not stops) law-abiding people? That criminals will do it anyway? Or that there is nothing that can be done to stop people doing something if they really want to do it?

If you could remain civil in your answer it would be appreciated. Disagree by all means, but I don’t know what is ‘ridiculous’ about any of that.