Are young people turning gay?

Chestnut

bluejay29

I heard a scientific/climate person on tv say there's tons of chemicals in river water now, some animals who live in water near industry are changing sex or their private parts are not right. It's a theory. I did hear this many years ago too when discussing the Pill and affects on men via recycled drinking water

This post has been overlooked and is something I was thinking about. I read some time ago there is evidence that fish are changing gender, and this of course raises questions about all the female hormones in the water which may affect men. We have had the contraceptive pill since the 1960s and in recent years HRT all of which are being washed into the water system. So is it possible this could affect men?

Yes, excess hormones in the water could affect men and women and cause some problems in idividuals. However it will not cause any of them to change sex. No mammal changes sex. Some fish can and do, responding to environmental conditions. When they change sex they stop producing either ova or sperm and start to produce the opposite gamete. Sex is categorised by whether your body is set up to produce large immotile gametes (ova) or small motile gametes (sperm) and that applies even if any individual's body fails to produce them for whatever reason.

Mollygo

I don’t know Lathyrus and I’ll have to go and research VS and binders, because I don’t recollect whether she ever mentioned the word manufactured in her support of supplying binders, which have the potential to cause irreversible damage.

I probably didn't use the word "manufactured".

Do you remember your exact words in every comment? Or do you just have your own views and know whether or not those views have changed?

What I don't understand is that generally it is only glorianny or myself with the mental fortitude to engage in these discussions.

Against a much bigger group of women who believe themselves to be right.

So why so much need to twist words or assert what we must think or mean or have previously said?

You must not have the strength of conviction you need to be right to engage in discussion this way

The cass report disagrees with your views VS. Thank God.

HRT and the pill being in the water would not cause trans men.

Trans men exist too

They are the ones using binders until surgery

Galaxy

The cass report disagrees with your views VS. Thank God.

Which views?

Galaxy

The cass report disagrees with your views VS. Thank God.

Also what does someone misrepresenting my views (which I am entitled to express) have to do with the cass report?

About validation, they are saying not enough evidence to say harmful or not.

Glorianny

Rosie51 and Doodledog the problem is you confuse misinterpreting your posts, or interpreting them differently to the way you intended, which anyone may do, with telling people what they have said and frequently completely falsely representing their views. You won't find one post where I say. "Doodledog said" or "Rosie51 said". The number of times the words "Glorianny said" have been posted or "You said", mostly quite incorrectly, have been posted I can't count. If I do challenge a post I tend to quote the post I am challenging not make up things someone has said.

All of the things I have attributed to you have come from this thread. Are you denying them, or saying I have made them up?

I agree that posts can be misinterpreted, wilfully or otherwise - that's why I spell things out. But saying that you cba to read something and then that it is 'irrelevant' and 'untenable' is not misinterpretation - it is just arrogance, and that's just the first example I remembered.

VS It is you who narrates your life, not anyone else ?. You tell us when you are off to do some crochet, do the washing or make a cup of tea (not necessarily accurate examples, but near enough). Nobody else does that, either about their own lives or yours.

Chestnut/bluejay29 Do fish have gender? They will be different sexes, as all living creatures are, but gender? I know nothing of the lifecycle of fish, so maybe they do, but it doesn't sound likely. I think it probably is likely that hormones in the water could have an effect on fish though, and quite possibly other creatures besides, maybe including us. It's an interesting POV.

Galaxy, Agreed. The sooner the better.

Glorianny Re the binders - As I said upthread, it may be true that manufactured ones are 'better' than home made, but the point is that it is remarkably presumptuous of an organisation to tell children that it is ok to go behind their parents' backs to get them, and extremely disconcerting to see the background and behaviour of those at the top of that organisations come to light. Whether children should be given binders at all is debatable, but it is not, IMO, for anyone other than their parents and psychologists to make that decision for them.

I try not to get involved with the individual fights VS (although am sure I fail some times ) so I wasnt getting involved in people misinterpreting views or not.

One of the concerns about Mermaids is also the discussion on moderated chatlines about obtaining items from the internet (puberty blockers I think) so they seem to have covered all bases.

Galaxy

One of the concerns about Mermaids is also the discussion on moderated chatlines about obtaining items from the internet (puberty blockers I think) so they seem to have covered all bases.

Membership to the Mermaids forums insisted on a private email address not known to the parents. If that doesn't sound the klaxons I don't know what will!

Galaxy

I try not to get involved with the individual fights VS (although am sure I fail some times ) so I wasnt getting involved in people misinterpreting views or not.

Well the thing is that there is a difference in my views and safeguarding children. I will follow my training. Which means I would only listen and comfort a child and refer on concerns.

I would not recommend any type of intervention

So it doesn't actually matter if I think that sometimes a safer alternative is a better option.

What actually matters is how I follow my training.

As I've said before, that is the case across the board. Whatever the topic. I will discuss the pros and cons and help children reach their own conclusions. I'm not in education to teach children my opinions. That would be wrong.

doodledog

I narrate my own life?

Have you considered that possibly I approach Internet forums differently to you?

I like a discussion amongst peers and generally act like that is the case.

Maybe you approach discussion differently?

But for me, I am a human and I recognise I am discussing things with other humans.

Sometimes knowing something about them helps me understand them better.

Having a problem with me saying I'm off to make a cup of tea... Well that doesn't make sense to me.

But I'm not in discussion for Internet points or pats on the back.

I don't even have to agree with someone in order to respect them

I don't have to like someone to be polite and cordial

I know I know

In before... "you are saying that like others dont"

But it's the truth and I am only replying to you

Well I don’t think telling a new poster who relates a traumatic episode that you’re not going “to waste your time” on her post is polite or cordial.

In fact it seems to have totally silenced her.

Jst back from the hairdresser so going to catch up on the posts about commercial binders being safer than homemade ones.
I know the conversations moved on but I think that assumption/advertisement, without any proof, is a topic worth pursuing.

A bit like people in the past, doctors even, would prescribe a rigid board for back problems, without knowing whether it it was good or bad. Just based on assumptions.

I don't read past assumptions and I stand by that.

Did others not offer comfort and support?

I'm not sure why you keep bringing it up to me but a new poster who thinks they know what I think or mean is a red flag for me

I thought the same about you Lathyrus

I like honest discussion and I won't read past assumptions. That's a healthy boundary

The point about female hormones in the water is whether, over time, these could cause men to become feminised and therefore gay or transgender. This excessive use of hormones has never happened before in the history of the world, and has now been going on for decades, so who knows? Surely if a male body is absorbing female hormones all through their life then this may have an effect. So men are not changing sex, they are still in the same male biological body there were born in, but they feel different, either feel like they are a woman or they are attracted to men. Obviously this is nothing new, but the question is....are there more transwomen or gay men than in the past?

Chestnut

The point about female hormones in the water is whether, over time, these could cause men to become feminised and therefore gay or transgender. This excessive use of hormones has never happened before in the history of the world, and has now been going on for decades, so who knows? Surely if a male body is absorbing female hormones all through their life then this may have an effect. So men are not changing sex, they are still in the same male biological body there were born in, but they feel different, either feel like they are a woman or they are attracted to men. Obviously this is nothing new, but the question is....are there more transwomen or gay men than in the past?

It's a longtime before we can answer that.

And we would also need a period of time where both are accepted by the whole of society and there was no fear in coming out before we could begin to correlate that sort of data

Chestnut

O do appreciate you are trying to get back on topic

Maybe the answers are in the survey I will look for it and read it better when I have time later

But possibly if there are the same increases in Lesbians and trans men... we can extrapolate that the water does not factor here

Ok. No duct tape can’t be good. I can see that a nonadherent binder would be better than that. It could cause traumatic skin damage.

My point is that we don’t know at all that commercially promoted binders cause less long term damage than homemade ones.

We just don’t. So to promote or describe them as “a safer alternative” from a position of total ignorance is quite immoral.

We do know that all binders cause harm to developing breast tissue. We don’t know how much harm.

Even less harm can be dangerous. Suppose, for instance, the crushing of 50% or more of breast tissue leads to an inability to feed a baby later in life. It really wouldn’t be relevant that the commercial binder crushed 60% and the homemade 80%. The consequences would be the same.

We won’t know if breast binding causes breast cancer until several years ahead. It’s a concern. We can’t know how much “safer” a commercial binder is for a long while.

We just don’t know and yet the very strong message given is “here is a safer alternative.”

VioletSky

I don't read past assumptions and I stand by that.

Did others not offer comfort and support?

I'm not sure why you keep bringing it up to me but a new poster who thinks they know what I think or mean is a red flag for me

I thought the same about you Lathyrus

I like honest discussion and I won't read past assumptions. That's a healthy boundary

By all means, those are your boundaries.

But “I won’t waste my time” on you, to someone who is relating their trauma is neither polite or cordial by most people’s standards.

Certainly it caused the poster enough pain to cause her to retreat forever.

Lathyrus

Can I deal with the second comment first because the first is much more interesting.

I don't waste my time on assumptions. Perhaps that was not the most polite approach but it was a frustrated one. I don't know how you know a poster left forever and I won't ask but if my boundary which I've made clear several times is the cause of that, then I apologise.

Too late for an apology I’m afraid. The pain you caused is the pain you caused.

That’s it really.

Lathyrus

Ok. No duct tape can’t be good. I can see that a nonadherent binder would be better than that. It could cause traumatic skin damage.

My point is that we don’t know at all that commercially promoted binders cause less long term damage than homemade ones.

We just don’t. So to promote or describe them as “a safer alternative” from a position of total ignorance is quite immoral.

We do know that all binders cause harm to developing breast tissue. We don’t know how much harm.

Even less harm can be dangerous. Suppose, for instance, the crushing of 50% or more of breast tissue leads to an inability to feed a baby later in life. It really wouldn’t be relevant that the commercial binder crushed 60% and the homemade 80%. The consequences would be the same.

We won’t know if breast binding causes breast cancer until several years ahead. It’s a concern. We can’t know how much “safer” a commercial binder is for a long while.

We just don’t know and yet the very strong message given is “here is a safer alternative.”

As I've said many times I don't promote breast binders and would not. If it somehow were my place I'd probably advise waiting until after therapy and then having surgery if they were absolutely sure...

Even then, I don't feel comfortable advising that.

I understand your concerns and I do think they are valid...

But you and I have never experienced gender dysphoria. We don't know or understand it. This thing that drives young people to harm themselves because of the parts they hate.

I've also never tried a breast binder made by people with medical knowledge or what it feels like.

But I would, if a child would bind either way using more harmful materiels, see that as a better option... that's just the truth.

As for going behind parents backs... I don't agree with that. But I also wonder and worry about parents who try to prevent their children from getting help with things they can't control. I wonder if accepting their child's needs would go some way towards their child not feeling that they need to take drastic action to at least look the gender they feel if they can't be validated for it.

I think it is so much more complex than binding is bad.

I don't have a solution for these young trans people and I wish I did.

Rosie51

Galaxy

One of the concerns about Mermaids is also the discussion on moderated chatlines about obtaining items from the internet (puberty blockers I think) so they seem to have covered all bases.

Membership to the Mermaids forums insisted on a private email address not known to the parents. If that doesn't sound the klaxons I don't know what will!

Asking children to talk without their parents having access to what is said is a massive red flag. What possible innocent reason can there be to do that?

VS, re the narration thing - I wouldn't have mentioned it, but you accused me of narrating your life. That confused me, as I have no way of knowing what you are doing, so couldn't narrate it if I wanted to, which I don't. As I say, you narrate it yourself, which is the only reason I mentioned it - God, this is exhausting.

I don't think that hormones in the water will make people change sex, as that is impossible, but I do wonder how healthy it is (and not just hormones, but other contaminants in the water supply).

I agree with Lathyrus that we don't know the harm that any form of binder can do. There have been hypotheses about underwired bras and deodorants causing cancer, and they are just two ideas that I can remember. They have been disproved, I think, but it made sense to avoid both whilst the jury was still out. Surely when we are looking at bidding breasts it is even more important to be careful. Not only that, but if a child has been told to keep binding secret from her parents, she is unlikely to confide in them if she has concerns or is in pain, so will be thrown back to the secret people on the Internet to give her advice.

Finally, I'm not sure what 'read past assumptions' means, but if it means that when you see something you assume to be an assumption you don't read further, then you are never going to know whether your assumptions were right, are you? The thing you assumed was as assumption may have been explained later in the post, and not be an assumption at all.

Lathyrus

Too late for an apology I’m afraid. The pain you caused is the pain you caused.

That’s it really.

OK that's a shame but I won't waste time in discussion reading things about myself that aren't true and I don't expect anyone else to either.

We can all choose a different approach if we want people to respond to our words rather than react to them.

That's personal growth