Are young people turning gay?

Not sure I understand really doodledog?

I'm an individual with my own opinions and I don't jump bandwagons going my way

No, I wasn't suggesting you were, honestly. Which post, or bit of a post did you mean? Apart from when I asked what you understood my earlier post, I wasn't directing anything at you personally.

I can't really judge as I'm not in that situation with a child wanting to bind and I don't know what I would do so in most scenarios I would look for advice or the law...

If they make them illegal then that is what it is but I don't think it will stop people. I've read of too many actually mutilating themselves and one person said that the desire to do so was so strong that the only thing that stopped them was a professional saying that might make them not qualify for future surgery.

I'd rather a binder than a worse solution but I would want that tied in with professional support and advice.

Young people need a family willing to get them that support and advice too and too often that isn't happening.

So I want young people to get 1. support from parents and 2. quick access to professionals

I think that would do more good than making binders illegal

Ok, but what if a parent's idea of support is not to allow binding? IYO, can you only be supportive if you 'validate' a child's desire to change sex?

I haven't faced this in my family, but I would definitely want to support any young person who came to me for help. However, I don't think that it would be supportive to encourage a child to do something that could have long-term consequences in pursuit of a goal that is biologically unachievable. I would probably advise them to change their name if they wanted to, ask relevant people to behave as though they were a boy (and have a detailed conversation about what they thought that would entail). They could dress in trousers and unisex tops (most of them do anyway), and generally behave as they think boys do. I would have regular conversations about how this was working out, and try to tease out what it is about being a boy that they find preferable to being a girl, in the hope that providing whatever it is might make things easier for them.

I know that I'm talking about an entirely hypothetical situation here, and that I'm making it sound a lot easier than it probably would be; but even so, I think that that sort of approach would be a lot more useful than reaching straight for a binder. When the girl got to 18 or so, if she was still determined to 'become' a man, it would be up to her, but she would have heard all the arguments and lived with a new ID to see if it made her happy, but without taking drastic action.

I'd have a son and not a daughter

As I said previously in another post, I think acceptance would go a long way to not needing to seek validation other ways

Which is why I say TWAW

What did I say that doesn't indicate acceptance? I think it's perfectly possible to accept someone without pretending that something is happening when it isn't.

Which is why I say transwomen are transwomen.

We'd be talking about transmen in this situation, but the principle is the same.

I would be very cautious as they are saying they dont know if social affirmation is harmful or not. So it would be a risk.

I can't see the harm in someone dressing how they like and using whatever name they like, so long as they aren't told that it will lead to changing sex, or are encouraged to get surgery or any other body modifications.

My nephew went through a stage of insisting he was Hercules. We all humoured him and even his teachers called him that (he was 4 or 5), until he grew out of it, which, of course, he did. He was accepted, but not allowed to think he could carry our seven labours or anything.

Oh yes of course but that's probably because I dont think clothes have anything to do with sex if you kniw what I mean.

Interesting on here this afternoon. Whether or not you say transwomen are transwomen or transwomen are women is immaterial and can suit your own personal choice, providing it isn’t used for deceit.

They both mean male, because males have misappropriated the word ‘women’ to suit their own ends and because changing sex from male to female or female to male is impossible.
Supporting children who have a desire to be a different gender is one thing. Good to see increasing acceptance that chemical or physical changes for younger children are no longer thought the best option.

Calling them by whatever they wish to be known, e.g. a son or a daughter is not a problem unless used for a deceitful purpose.

Lying that they have changed sex and are therefore entitled to claim any perquisites that belong to people born that sex is deceitful.

IMO such deceit is as wrong as any deceit. If it impacts harmfully on other people, it’s doubly wrong.

However I’m aware that some people find deceit an acceptable way of life as long as it’s their choice to deceive.

Right....

I don't think clothes have anything to do with sex, and whereas they are a signifier of 'gender', they have precious little to do with that either.

What I meant was, if faced with a distressed child (and assuming I had a good reason to be involved, so a grandchild or something), I think I would want to humour them as best I could, so as not to frighten them off, and would accept their choices about how to present themselves. I did that with my children - they never got involved with trans issues, but we had Emo, Skater, Grunge etc, and later there were tattoos, piercings and so on. I didn't always like it, but respected their right to choose how they looked. In any case, a lot of girls wear hoodies and jeans, so there would be little difference. The point is that I think I would accept them, but not encourage anything permanent, and definitely not buy into anything about being in the wrong body.

I don't think I am expressing this very well, and I'm not equating being a goth with being trans - what I mean is that I think that accepting the person without validating the fantasy is perfect possible.

I think they would know that doodledog, that's the problem. Wouldn't matter if you were an Oscar worthy actor, family knows us too well. And obviously if they wanted hormone therapy or surgery, that's more hurdles you would have to try and hide your feelings through

But then, I don't think any of us can really say how we would react unless actually in that situation.

And I think it is probably hard for anyone no matter how accepting they are and they may need support

Being transgender and knowing all that is probably why so many struggle so much with mental health

VioletSky

Right....

Exactly.

Oh of course in the way that if my child became religious I would accept them of course, but would not believe what they believed. When my son was 4 he went through a deeply religious phase, then started pronouncing his atheism to the world in his catholic high school Re assignments

But is the alternative to just go along with something that is never going to be true, and tell a vulnerable child that she can change sex?

How is that fair? When they realise that whatever they do they will never be anything other than the sex they were born, will they blame the adults who encouraged them in the fantasy? There has been a huge rise in the number of young people wanting to transition over the past few years (or it certainly seems that that is the case), and they haven't grown up yet. We don't know what problems are being stored up for later - there are already well-publicised cases of people desperate to detransition. With waiting lists as they are, there could be a backlog before now, and the chances are that they'll look back and blame the adults who went along with it all. Some already are.

So many detransition stories are actually related to not conforming to gender norms and the way people are treated because of that.

But a lot of problems around the trans and non gender conforming communities seem to have roots in sexism

But I don't think most transgender people feel they have changed sex. They are very clear on that. There may be a few that do. But one of the big mistakes made on these threads is that transgender people are all the same, they aren't. Some simply socially transition, some use hormones, some have surgery. These threads always focus on transwomen, but there are increasing numbers of transmen. Generalisation such as "they will never be anything other than the sex they were born" really doesn't address the issues for the majority who don't want to be a different sex but want their gender identity to be recognised.

As I said, and also the Cass report says we need to look at people questioning their gender as a whole and not only that issue and ensure mistakes aren't made.

I would, as I keep saying, support a child to get the right help.

The only other option is to get them no help

I don't deem myself qualified to encourage or discourage.

That's acceptance

G
But one of the big mistakes made on these threads is that transgender people are all the same, they aren't.
I’m not sure that anyone on any thread about trans has made that mistake.
The public face of trans is caused by the negative actions of the few.
How would you like the “gender identity” to be recognised Glorianny?

You can dress as whatever gender you like.
Call yourself what gender you like
Both those are to do with gender, not sex.

With gender, people feel they can flip from day to day or remain constant.
Sex is immutable and has rights attached to it.

What is it you are asking for on behalf of “gender identity”?

Er we know about the rise in transmen, it's what should have flagged up some of the issues more quickly. Because the percentage increase was so rapid.

I think all this depends on whether you are a top down thinker or a bottom up thinker

Hello, Glorianny. I'm still waiting to hear why you thought that my 'ridiculous' post upthread was saying that criminalising something would stop people doing it when in fact I said the opposite. Twice.

VS
As I said, and also the Cass report says we need to look at people questioning their gender as a whole and not only that issue and ensure mistakes aren't made.

I would, as I keep saying, support a child to get the right help. The only other option is to get them no help. I don't deem myself qualified to encourage or discourage. That's acceptance.

So how does that differ from what I said? I would neither encourage nor discourage either - I just wouldn't play along with a pretence that they could change sex. Also, what is 'the right help'? I think we all want children to get that, but the question is - what is it?

What does it mean for people want to have a 'gender identity' recognised, Glorianny? If someone doesn't want to change sex, so (for the sake of argument) is a girl/woman and knows it, but wants a different 'gender ID', what, specifically, does she want? She can already work as a plumber, wear jeans and hoodies (or whatever is age-appropriate) cut her hair and drink pints - many women already do all of that without wanting to change ID - so what is it? To be referred to as 'he' when not there? I'm not being flippant, but that's not the difficult bit - the problem comes when men say that they are women and take away our single sex spaces. If they are content to be in the male sex, why not behave accordingly, and use facilities for men, with the other male people, and leave women in peace? They can do the 'gender' thing at the same time.

Finally, for the millionth time, transmen are not mentioned as often because they do not present a threat to women in the way that some transwomen do.

doodledog

It's not about sex it's about gender so you would have to accept them as their internal gender to accept then

Whether that is trans man, trans woman or gender fluid

Always use chosen pronouns and back that up in general, like when someone misgenders on this thread, saying that is wrong to do.

And understand that both men and women perpetuate gender norms and that they aren't likely to go away completely but at least we can choose not to conform and we should be able to do so without forcing harmful stereotypes on people questioning their gender making them think they can only be one or the other

And it's all blatantly ridiculously complicated I know but I don't know what to do about it other than love good people for who they are on the inside and make space for them to be their authentic selves whether I understand it all or not

I have not read all the comments here, far too many for that, but to answer the OP I think there will be around about the same number of people who identify as gay as there ever were in the past. What will skew the figures is that today it is acceptable to come out and say you are gay or think you are gay.
I see the thread has meandered back to the trans issue again, and possibly to the awful group who call themselves Mermaids.I see that they are under investigation for various matters which may help to show what their aims really are.
Happy to read today that no trans women will be housed in womens prisons in future.