Are young people turning gay?

And it's all blatantly ridiculously complicated I know but I don't know what to do about it other than love good people for who they are on the inside and make space for them to be their authentic selves whether I understand it all or not.
Good cop out VS.
But once again you use waffle like
“makes space for them to be their authentic selves”
What exactly does that mean?

I do accept people for who they are. That's the bit that gets so frustrating about these conversations. I know and accept transpeople and non-binary people. The ones I know are aware that they are trans and none pretend to be the opposite sex though, although they 'present' as such. I call people by whatever name they use themselves, but I will not declare a pronoun myself, as I think it is intrusive and that it signifies buying into an belief system I don't share.

I don't force gender roles or identities or anything else on anyone, and nor do I insist that they conform to stereotypes. I simply do not believe that men can be women just because they say so, and I would not encourage a child to think that either.

What makes you think that I don't 'make space' for people to be their 'authentic selves'? I don't talk in language like that, but that doesn't mean I don't do it .

I will never believe that transwomen are women, and I don't want them in women's spaces or women's sport, any more than I want any men there. To me, their 'authentic selves' are transwomen, but so what? It's a part of who they are, as are many other things about them.

I have to say, though, that I do have experience of TRAs not returning the favour. Trying to cancel people (in a field where social media presence is vital) for a slip of the tongue or saying what they deem to be the wrong thing. It can be quite horrible, really. Tolerance should be a two way street.

Prentice, if transwomen are not going to be allowed in women's prisons, that is great news.

You posted yesterday @ 18.44 Doodledog "I think that accepting the person without validating the fantasy is perfectly possible" and I agree with this.

Trans women who think it is acceptable for example to compete against natal women in sport, have bought into the fantasy that men can change sex and become women so are competing on a level playing field, which of course they're not.

There are harmless myths, at one time believed by many children that they eventually grow out of; Father Christmas, The Tooth Fairy and the Easter Bunny. Believing that it is possible to change sex is not just a myth, it's one that can have disastrous consequences.

You are right Prentice that it being 'easier' and more acceptable to come out as gay is bound to "skew the figures" when making generational comparisons.

But it's not about sex it's about gender

So there is no need to say that

I think gender is oppressive and I am not going to support the stereotypes involved in it. My beliefs are protected in law. I might get a t shirt with this on to save time

Which is exactly how people are wriggling out of this

I think our concepts of gender are oppressive too.

I don’t accept that certain styles of dress, interests, careers, whatever, make you a woman or a man. They just stop you from being the ‘authentic” person you are and stop others accepting you for who you are.

So when someone says “I’ll keep this male/female body but because of what I wear or do or even play with as a child I am a woman\man” that doesn’t make any sense to me.

Even worse when somebody else says, “because you behave in a certain way, like to dress in a certain way, play with these kinds of toys,” you must be in the wrong body.

I am not wriggling out of anything. Those are my beliefs. They are fundamental to me.

VioletSky

But it's not about sex it's about gender

So there is no need to say that

Can you explain what you mean by this? I don’t mean by telling us that sex and gender we different as we all know that.

What do you see gender as meaning? I can try to explain my own views, but I have done so many times and it will be boring. I think that if we can get to the bottom of what people mean by gender, and what they think ‘being a woman (or a man) means when they talk about ‘knowing inside’, then we have more chance of reaching an understanding. What do you think that Galaxy is wriggling out of?

So I have just had a couple of days spending time in a new university building. The loos were separate cubicles, lockable doors, and floor to ceiling walls, each with its own washing facilities and mirror. Two women only, two either gender and two men only. And it struck me that the arguments on here are outdated. That things are already changing and will continue to change. And actually proper loo facilities, with provision for washing, benefit all of us and are more hygienic. So acceptance of transpeople can bring benefits for all.

If someone is going to tell me that most loos won't change. When I started teaching some schools still had outside toilets for children. I'd say within 10 years all of those had gone because they were considered unacceptable and indoor facilities were provided. I anticipate the same will happen with gender considerate toilets now.
The realities of what is happening in the lives of young people and the theoretical discussions on GN are worlds apart.

We have been discussing massive safeguarding failures rather than toilets.

There are hundreds of thousands of public toilets which are not as you describe Glorianny. How long will it take for those to reach the standard of these shiny new university buildings? Meanwhile, youngsters have to share old fashioned toilets with adults in a variety of different, and sometimes outdoor, settings, and that is the reality.

VioletSky

Which is exactly how people are wriggling out of this

As you have wriggled out of answering my question below? VS.

“makes space for them to be their authentic selves”
What exactly does that mean?

Galaxy
I think I’ll join you on this one.
I think gender is oppressive and I am not going to support the stereotypes involved in it. My beliefs are protected in law. I might get a t shirt with this on to save time

The realities of what is happening in the lives of young people
as in girls or AHF being faced with a male in their changing room or toilet and males being given the right to be there and the girls punished for complaining, or males upskirting girls . . . are indeed worlds apart from what we suffered as girls.
Not so far distant from discussions on GN.

I would also like to know what you mean in your post @ 10.07 VS.

Re. your posts @ 10.20 and 10.21 Lathyrus, it doesn't make any sense to me either.

Galaxy

We have been discussing massive safeguarding failures rather than toilets.

The safeguarding failures have exactly the same roots as the toilet provision. If you fail to recognise something then someone will act in a way that may not be perfectly acceptable. As a result the issues are highlighted. Provision of some kind is made, but it isn't necessarily proper provision and it is in some ways inadequate, that provision is looked at and is adapted. Eventually good practice is established and maintained. But it's a journey and it doesn't happen over night.

Take the provision of transprisons. The placing of transwomen into women's prisons was the direct result of transwomen committing suicide when they were placed in male prisons. They had said they would do this if they were put into a man's prison. So judges who probably knew little about transwomen were faced with the dilemma of where to place them. They chose to put them in women's prisons, which was a wrong decision. But it led to the creation of trans units.

I can't see that calling for the closing down of any organisation which is trying to help trans children helps anyone. It may need changes in policies and practice but it is providing some help to some children. Leaving them without any resources and with a waiting list of 4 years to get an appointment with a gender clinic is not safeguarding them. It is leaving them to explore much darker areas through the internet, where there is information and advice much worse than that offered by Mermaids.

I'm with the CEO of the Fawcett Society on this . www.fawcettsociety.org.uk/blog/sex-and-gender-identity-finding-a-way-forward?gclid=Cj0KCQjw166aBhDEARIsAMEyZh6ojGAr3-TvhG5i-_LmiamY2tCQKHkYdmu0Lo7Qer4MVfp9h6_3i9YaAhuBEALw_wcB

I think that wasnt that clear to be honest Glorianny, although I agree on the sex based rights part. I think there was a fair bit of fence sitting and hedging bets there. Some progress I think though.

There is an appalling lack of services for children with autism at the moment, well has been forever to be honest. If there are organisations supporting children with autism who have serious safeguarding failures (and of course there are) I dont want those to be allowed to continue in their current form just because of that shortage. Those children are worth more than that.
I cant predict what will happen in relation to the investigation into Mermaids but my guess is that the current management will go, they have lost a number of trustees already.

Glorianny

I'm with the CEO of the Fawcett Society on this . www.fawcettsociety.org.uk/blog/sex-and-gender-identity-finding-a-way-forward?gclid=Cj0KCQjw166aBhDEARIsAMEyZh6ojGAr3-TvhG5i-_LmiamY2tCQKHkYdmu0Lo7Qer4MVfp9h6_3i9YaAhuBEALw_wcB

Thanks for sharing this

I'd have no problem with any staff changes Galaxy the abolition of the whole organisation is entirely another question. It would be good if it was simply made unnecessary because NHS provision was so good (but I won't hold my breath)
The problem is would children with autism, if there was absolutely no help whatsoever and they were waiting for an appointment to diagnose them, make use of the internet to find alternatives? Because I think trans children would and do.

I think it will depend what further comes out in the investigation and I am beginning to wonder about whether there will be claims for compensation. I imagine that in relation to the tavistock that must be a strong possibility and it's where that then leads.

There is an appalling lack of services for children with autism, gender dysphoria and mental health. In any of those areas I’m not convinced that bad advice is better than no advice at all.

Yes it will depend on what comes out. If an enquiry finds that Mermaids created an environment that gave access to abusers whether intentionally or unintentionally and through publicity actively recruited children to the organisations beliefs then that really wouldn’t be a better a better option than the Internet would it?

If an organisation like Barnados, that is heavily involved with vulnerable children, was suspected of something similar, not just an isolated case, but an ethos that ran throughout, then you would expect that to be shut down immediately while an enquiry took place.

They wouldn’t be allowed to continue because of the risk that the concerns were proven and more children had been put at risk while the enquiry took place.

If a teacher, or medical staff or police are accused of child abuse they are immediately removed from their position.

I can’t see that lack of alternative provision or concern over the iInternet use can be used as a reason for allowing Mermaids to continue whilst the possibility of child abuse is a concern.

And simply replacing some people in an organisation is not the answer. Not till you know what has happened and who has been involved.

Glorianny

So I have just had a couple of days spending time in a new university building. The loos were separate cubicles, lockable doors, and floor to ceiling walls, each with its own washing facilities and mirror. Two women only, two either gender and two men only. And it struck me that the arguments on here are outdated. That things are already changing and will continue to change. And actually proper loo facilities, with provision for washing, benefit all of us and are more hygienic. So acceptance of transpeople can bring benefits for all.

If someone is going to tell me that most loos won't change. When I started teaching some schools still had outside toilets for children. I'd say within 10 years all of those had gone because they were considered unacceptable and indoor facilities were provided. I anticipate the same will happen with gender considerate toilets now.
The realities of what is happening in the lives of young people and the theoretical discussions on GN are worlds apart.

The arguments here are about the world we live in now, not a future Utopia with purpose-built facilities that can accommodate all proclivities. University buildings are often very old, and to install new toilets would be hideously expensive and require extensive remodelling. In several buildings I have worked in, there are few women's loos anyway, as women weren't expected to be great in number when they were built. In one base I had, there was one loo (not a block, but one toilet) for women on the whole floor, and it was also the disabled one, so was often used by men too. The building I use now has had the women's loos changed to what they are calling 'gender neutral', whilst the men's stays the same. Removing urinals and giving men three separate cubicles (which is what women are used to) would be to diminish their experience, so won't happen. Instead, the meagre provision we had is reduced to a shared block of three, and it is near the entrance, so a lot of men use it on their way in and out, sooner than walk along the corridor to the male one.

New buildings may come to accommodate everyone, but by then there may be other groups identifying in ways that they claim need separate facilities. Where would you draw the line there? Should furries have places to cock their legs, for instance? If we buy into men 'becoming' women, why not accept that some people identify with cartoon animals? There could well be other demands from different groups - who gets to decide which are accommodated and which are not? Surely it is easier to separate by sex and have separate facilities for the disabled if space and plumbing allows?

I really don't think that 'the reality of life for young people' is as you describe at all. Some of them will go to modern schools or universities with purpose-built cubicles, but most will inhabit the real world, with a mishmash of premises of different ages and designs, and have to live with it, just as we do. Othering people who post on here, and suggesting that we are all out of date and reactionary is never a good look.

I agree that replacing some staff would be a start; but the issue there is how they were employed in the first place, and what philosophy allowed them to pass through the various processes and decisions that led to their being chosen.