The Brexit Effect

Katie59

Whitewavemark2

There would be no requirement for a referendum to join the SM and CU.

We try and very occasionally succeed to do these sort of deals with countries all over the world and all that happens is that you read in the newspapers that the deal has been done.

This is no different. The significance is that is the biggest trading block in the world - why wouldn’t you want to help British business this way?

The EEA is regulated by the EU, freedom of movement is part of the agreement, along with alignment of other regulations.
It’s the opposite of Brexit, EU membership without a vote.

I would like to think that at a stroke we could join, the lobby against that will be very strong.

Yes, but that is true of other trade agreements. One if the conditions that India wants is much more freedom for its citizens to come to the U.K.

Trade agreements come with conditions.

We won’t need a referendum.

Brexit ,for all its bad press, certainly did keep the promise to fund our NHS.

Whitewavemark2

There would be no requirement for a referendum to join the SM and CU.

We try and very occasionally succeed to do these sort of deals with countries all over the world and all that happens is that you read in the newspapers that the deal has been done.

This is no different. The significance is that is the biggest trading block in the world - why wouldn’t you want to help British business this way?

The EEA is regulated by the EU, freedom of movement is part of the agreement, along with alignment of other regulations.
It’s the opposite of Brexit, EU membership without a vote.

I would like to think that at a stroke we could join, the lobby against that will be very strong.

Sorry, I'm going to divert again...

It wasn't tough in Scotland over the referendum period. It was marvellous. Everyone was talking about Barnet Consequentials on the bus. In the queue for the ladies you could have an informed discussion about the nature of citizenship or membership of the EU. My side lost and we didn't riot, we must got on with it.

People will tell you how somebody was nasty to them because they were English, or that the nice couple they met on holiday are leaving Scotland because everybody hates them. And any Tory talking about independence will cite the "divisive referendum". You have to say "divisive", it seems to be a Unionist rule. My advice is, don't be taken in. It was democracy in action and anybody who doesn't want it to happen again because it was tough is either mistaken or mischievous.

Prentice

Your last paragraph is interesting NotSpaghetti and in fact I do wonder if Scotland is in the same position, being a divided country because of referendums.

I think it was tough over the referendum period but Scotland seems (from the outside at least) to have been healing better than the UK.
I think it will take 20 years to get over Brexit - the finances alone will have knock-on repercussions the economic abuse one generation feels is visited on them by another is substantial and adds to the negative feelings many young remain voters have to contend with.

If young families (mostly remain) are disproportionately affected by Brexit it will take longer to heal. At least Scotland is united against Brexit and can blame "others" for that disaster.

The economic forecast here is bleak. Guy Hands (a long-time Tory supporter and private-equity investor) on the radio this morning says we are going to need a bail-out from the IMF! He said we are again the sick man of Europe

Here's an article about the Radio 4 interview:

www.google.com/amp/s/www.cityam.com/terra-firma-boss-says-uk-may-need-bailout-from-imf-and-now-sick-man-of-europe-due-to-brexit-deal/%3famp=1

There would be no requirement for a referendum to join the SM and CU.

We try and very occasionally succeed to do these sort of deals with countries all over the world and all that happens is that you read in the newspapers that the deal has been done.

This is no different. The significance is that is the biggest trading block in the world - why wouldn’t you want to help British business this way?

I’m pretty sure the EU want us in the Customs Union - on their terms, there may well be sectors that are outside the agreement. There will ne no scope for cherry-picking it’s either in or out.

The problem I see, is getting an agreement before a referendum so that everyone knows what the deal is, last time we voted without any idea what the conditions were.

Yes, perhaps we should not talk about this on this thread.The subject just popped into my head, when reading about referendums.

Prentice

I wondered if the referendum to come in Scotland, whenever that time may be would greatly divide the country.
There is bound to be high emotion invested in this, just as there was with the Brexit referendum.
If people, the majority vote, decide to leave the UK, could there be anger? If the decision is to stay, will the politicians in Scotland let the matter rest, or keep on asking for more referendums? If so, is this fair to the population in Scotland, because it must be a divisive issue, it is bound to be.

Yes, no, yes, yes.

I can talk about this topic for hours, but I don't want to divert the thread. ?

I couldn’t put it better than this.

I wondered if the referendum to come in Scotland, whenever that time may be would greatly divide the country.
There is bound to be high emotion invested in this, just as there was with the Brexit referendum.
If people, the majority vote, decide to leave the UK, could there be anger? If the decision is to stay, will the politicians in Scotland let the matter rest, or keep on asking for more referendums? If so, is this fair to the population in Scotland, because it must be a divisive issue, it is bound to be.

Prentice

Your last paragraph is interesting NotSpaghetti and in fact I do wonder if Scotland is in the same position, being a divided country because of referendums.

Scotland is not a divided country because of referendums. If we are divided at all - which I do not agree with - its because around 50% of us think one way and 50% of us think another.

Even if we don't have another referendum in the near future, we'll still be split politically. Just like every other nation on earth. Not talking about it won't make it go away.

The plan, had the referendum gone the other way, was for a cross party group of people to implement the decision. Not what we got with Brexit, which was a group of overgrown schoolboys having a p***ing contest with each other, trying to show the EU how tough they were.

This, from the Financial Times, gives a very balanced view of Brexit. How other factors cannot be ignored, the pandemic, the war in Ukraine- but how Brexit is making the effects so so much worse for the UK, and that the effects will be long-term.

www.ft.com/video/91b8a350-5817-4b40-a5ea-c62ec832aa9c

Prentice

Saying to another poster ‘don’t give me that nonsense’ is indeed rude Fleurpepper or at least is considered so by me, as I would never say that to somebody, even on a forum.
As far as the referendum was concerned it was as I said, one person one vote as usual, and it was not the fault of the voters if the government decided to agree in Parliament by majority voting to implement the result of an advisory referendum.
We are where we are regarding leaving the EU and must, as Sir Keir Starmer says, make the best we can of it.

Well, I see your point. But it is nonsense, proven, again and again. That is the point many of us are making.

I don't think David Cameron really wanted to have the vote to leave the EU. There was a lot of noise from Farage and the whole thing gained momentum so Cameron decided to go for the vote

I remember the Milliband chap on QT or some chat show and he wouldn't agree to a referendum.

But leaving the EU wasn't something they picked out of nowhere. There was a Referendum Party at one time shut 20 years ago. Eurosceptics have been around since we joined up!

I was disappointed with the result but I don't believe we're going back in any time soon.

As Maizie has correctly pointed out the fraudulent referendum of 2016 was won by lies, cheating and foreign interference.

The proven illegality was so serious that the result would have been annulled had the referendum had been mandatory but it was only advisory.

A responsible government would have taken note of that and that should have been the end of this brainless act of national self destruction.

Saying to another poster ‘don’t give me that nonsense’ is indeed rude Fleurpepper or at least is considered so by me, as I would never say that to somebody, even on a forum.
As far as the referendum was concerned it was as I said, one person one vote as usual, and it was not the fault of the voters if the government decided to agree in Parliament by majority voting to implement the result of an advisory referendum.
We are where we are regarding leaving the EU and must, as Sir Keir Starmer says, make the best we can of it.

Our economy will never recover until we become working partners with the SM and CU again.

Prentice, Maizie's post was not rude at all.

It is nonsense! And catastrophic for this country. It has been proven beyond any doub that the campaign was run on lies, deception, and foreign interference and money- and even so, only won by a tiny margin which would have cancelled the result had it not been 'advisory'.

Your last paragraph is interesting NotSpaghetti and in fact I do wonder if Scotland is in the same position, being a divided country because of referendums.

MaizieD

^It did not do any good to be outraged and march by the result of the referendum because it was a fair and democratic vote.^

It was so far from being a 'fair and democratic vote' that it was admitted in court, by a barrister acting for the government, that, had it been mandatory, rather advisory, it would have had to have been re run.

So don't give me that nonsense.

Nothing fair about a referendum run on lies, cheating, 'dark adverts' and foreign money.

There is no need for rudeness MaizieD

I was strongly remain. I think I understand why people chose to leave and there are and were problems in the EU. I like to think that most remain-voting people knew this.

I think that had we stayed in and been a voice and power for change/reform we could have done great things. It was a period open to EU changes and a head of steam was building for this.

The UK government however has spent too many years blaming the EU for anything negative in this country (deserved or not) and has taken all the credit for the extensive good/benefits that have come about because of the EU.
The EU was our government's scape goat.

Normandygirl and others sadly there is no point I think in trying to demonstrate the many differences between the UK and our European neighbours as being anything to do with Brexit as once committed to leave, most leave voters need to believe it was the right decision because it was a visceral one and you cannot change the way people feel.

I hope, that in my children's lifetime the UK will be able rejoin the EU and that my grandchildren will know the same benefits, opportunities and protections as I was privileged to have had. The whole episode has cast a dark shadow on us - and I think the divisions created by the vote has been unpleasant and harmful even for those who "won" out - as we all now live in an even more divided country.

The results of the latest Opinium poll in today's Observer.

Re the political parties:

The latest Opinium poll for the Observer gives Labour a 27-point lead over the Tories, the largest Opinium has ever recorded. Starmer’s party is on 50% (up three points on a fortnight ago), with the Tories on 23% (-3), the Lib Dems on 9% (-2) and the Greens unchanged on 6%. The poll shows that about 30% of 2019 Conservative voters have moved to Labour. A fortnight ago that figure was 25%.

Re Brexit:

Only 29% of those surveyed think Brexit has gone well so far, while 60% think it has gone badly. A third (34%) think it has gone worse than expected, although 9% think it has gone better than they expected.

It did not do any good to be outraged and march by the result of the referendum because it was a fair and democratic vote.

It was so far from being a 'fair and democratic vote' that it was admitted in court, by a barrister acting for the government, that, had it been mandatory, rather advisory, it would have had to have been re run.

So don't give me that nonsense.

Nothing fair about a referendum run on lies, cheating, 'dark adverts' and foreign money.

Urmstongran

Brexit was voted for. Sadly however, along came the pandemic, lockdowns, eye watering furlough payments and distribution of effective vaccines.

Once the dust has settled a bit from all that, Brexit will be back on the agenda. Progress will be made eventually because we are not rejoining the EU. We will be trying more robustly to pull away.

"Sadly however, along came the pandemic, lockdowns, eye watering furlough payments and distribution of effective vaccines."
As it did for the EU and the world, so can you explain why the UK is now doing so much worse than any other advanced European and world economies?