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Shell announces biggest profits since 2008

(30 Posts)
Wyllow3 Thu 27-Oct-22 10:24:15

On the 10am news and probably before.So for goodness sake tax them!
Its Labour Party policy,
and should be part of policy announcements by the Conservatives in their next big "package" of financial announcements.

Its utterly gross that this is happening when people cannot afford heating bills, and we could partly ease it by taxing the very people who make and enjoy the profits. The shareholders won't go short - why should the public?

MaizieD Tue 01-Nov-22 21:22:34

I'm sorry, MOnica, but we all 'should' know that investing in anything apart from government bonds is ultimately just speculation.

I don't buy the 'don't call to tax excess profits because 'pension funds' argument. What if oil prices hadn't risen (if there had been no Russian invasion of Ukraine) and the oil companies had just made their 'normal' profits? I don't think anyone would have thought that pensions would be suffering under those circumstances.

Much as I feel for the poor oil companies having those high prices forced on them by external actors these are windfall profits, completely unearned and, what is more, taking money from people who can in many cases ill afford it. There is no reason why shareholders, be they individuals or pension funds, should benefit from them when part of the profits could be used for the benefit of all our citizens.

Besides which, I thought that (if the hoo haa around the bond yields is to be believed) pension funds had much of their monies in government bonds..but felt they had to sell them because of liquidity problems caused by their riskier, higher potential profit, investments failing...

(yup, I do know about spreading the risk...)

MaizieD Tue 01-Nov-22 22:09:19

Oil companies are not supermarkets competing for custom by offering the lowest prices. The price of energy is decided by world markets, which are external to the oil companies, were they to get together to try and manipulate prices, there would be outrage. There are laws against companys working together to control prices.

But a huge question mark hovers over the 'markets' that determine oil prices.

This is interesting from economist Ann Pettifor

Why are governments impotent?
In an age of economic and ecological crises

While supply and demand have undoubtedly played a role in the dramatic volatility of oil, gas and food prices, the real cause of rising high prices (and their subsequent crashes) lies elsewhere. Understanding this matters because the astronomical rise in the oil price has had severe, and in some places catastrophic consequences for the world’s people. And the oil price shock has accelerated climate breakdown. Carbon emissions have risen as countries fire up coal mines to substitute for costlier fossil fuels.

Why are these chaotic price swings and their dire consequences not managed or mitigated? Why are powerful governments – and central banks – impotent in the face the economic, ecological, and political turbulence caused by this market?

The answer lies in the way in which deregulation empowered those active in financial markets. Prices of commodities in those markets are determined by speculators on Wall St and and at the Chicago Mercantile Exchange – not by politicians in Riyadh or Moscow. Not by the CEOs of global oil companies like BP or EXXON.

Not even by rising demand.

Instead prices are set on global futures, options and derivatives markets, where investors and traders speculate on the direction of the price of oil, and thereby affect the ‘spot’ (or current) price.

As the US Energy Information Administration explains, there are differences between participants in these two marketplaces for oil. Commercial’ traders (e.g. oil producers and airlines) buy and sell physical quantities of oil. ‘Non-commercial’ traders (Banks, hedge funds, commodity trading advisors, and other money managers with towering portfolios) don’t buy or sell oil. They simply buy, sell and speculate on financial instruments - futures contracts and derivatives - embodied in pieces of paper.

The system, the global economic order - designed by economists and central bankers and endorsed by elected politicians - licenses and empowers the owners of capital to drive their capital at whim across borders and to use that capital for rent-seeking and speculation. They may do so without regard to the consequences for a nation’s exchange rate, its public finances or its essential commodity markets.

annpettifor.substack.com/p/why-are-western-governments-impotent

Those windfall profits are purely a result of speculation by those who have no concerns about its effect on national economies... It's quite horrifying in a way...

The same speculators nearly crashed the global economy in 2008...

M0nica Tue 01-Nov-22 22:23:01

Maizie I have said nothing in opposition to a windfall tax. I am all in favour, what I was pointing out is that the majority of 'greedy shareholders' who sit their like Midas counting their ill-gotten gains are pension funds and insurance companies. In other words, the majority of the those benefiting from these above avaerage profits are all those GN members, and many more reeciving or saving into occupational or personal pensions

M0nica Tue 01-Nov-22 22:26:16

I have just read your long quote. Nothing new in it, that is how markets have worked since the year dot. Not the current specific post holders, but there have always been people behind the scenes controlling how much of a product reaches the market, hoarding and flooding markets etc etc. That is just basic entry level economics.