What will happen to Conservatism and where will it go from here.

Katie59

Politics seems to be polarizing just like the US, the right wing holding the Tories in their grip and very likely the left wing Labour. Unless there is a miracle Labour will win the next GE, that does not mean the ERG will go away, they will bide their time until the next opportunity. It doesnt take a large group to hold the leader to ransome

I don't know where your view of the current Labour Party comes from Katie but perhaps I can guess.

To me the current Labour party is mainly democratic socialist with a minority of radical left. We certainly hear from the extreme left (including on here), but they seem to have very little power within this current iteration of Labour.

I would have to say it would take a few bottles of something strong to see the current Democratic party in the USA as far left too.

In France during the last 10 years the Republican party since
Sarkosy have gone slowly downhill untill they only polled
5% at the last Presidential election which gave Macron his second term in office with his Central party . Its unlikely they
will be making a comeback anytime soon. The Conservatives may find it difficult also once they start the downhill track.

Caroline Lucas said it so well last night on Question Time. The current Government is rotten to the core.

fb.watch/gJPDv5Hf0O/

I feel sick that the current voting system, which is totally undemocratic- does not allow us to vote for people we want to represent us- because our vote goes straight in the bin- time after time.

Sick too that anyone who does not support this Governement is automatically labelled as a extreme left wing nutter.

Do we know who is a member of the ERG? Do we know precisely what they stand for? I would like greater transparency regarding this powerful, yet unseen wing of the current government. As it stands, we seem to have a secret right wing cohort steering the ship. Undemocratic, surely.

We know that Suella Braverman used to chair it, Rees Mogg is a member and so is Steve Baker.

People post lists of 'members' on twitter from time to time; I might have bookmarked one, I'll see if I can find it for you, Blinko.

I think they morphed into the Covid deniers Research Group at one time...

The Tory Party is a moving compromise like all Parties and it will simply find a new compromise to remain electable. What that compromise will be depends on currents of opinion amongst the public, most of whom are manipulated by the press and media.

MaizieD

We know that Suella Braverman used to chair it, Rees Mogg is a member and so is Steve Baker.

People post lists of 'members' on twitter from time to time; I might have bookmarked one, I'll see if I can find it for you, Blinko.

I think they morphed into the Covid deniers Research Group at one time...

The issue is, that lists are going round. We do know who some of them are, like Braverman, Rees-Mogg, Baker, etc. But what is totally unacceptable is that there is no OFFICIAL list which is available to other Parties, The Speaker, The Lords and to us the public.

If you have not seen it, please watch this excruciating interview, with Suella Braverman refusing to disclose list. It is painful to watch

youtu.be/Cbkog8tY5U8

The ERG is the massive elephant in the room- and it is time we all knew who they are, who pulls their strings, and why- and what their real aims are.

Daisy Anne, I think the Conservative party grew out of 18th-19th century political spectrum where the opposition were Whigs. Whigs, I understand, supported the new economic order that included profit at all costs to the individual and the old social class system . The latter worked well enough as compared with the rampant inequalities engendered by industrial revolution and urbanisation.

More recently, as human rights ameliorated capitalism, the Conservatives became the nastier party who support the capitalist status quo .

PS Daisy Anne, I just been looking it up and my explanation above is too simplistic. Sorry!

The two main political parties changed considerably during the centuries before universal franchise and the emergence of the Labour Party.

In the nineteenth century, the Whigs supported the abolition of slavery, widening the franchise to the middle classes and free trade. They campaigned for the abolition of "rotten boroughs" and more MPs for the new cities such as Manchester.

Free trade benefited poorer people because it brought down prices and helped exports from the new industries, but was bitterly opposed by traditional farmers because they couldn't compete on price. Rural workers lost their jobs, while urban workers benefited from lower prices. Nineteenth century Liberals were associated with non-conformism and, by the beginning of the 20th century, with social reform.

Both Whigs and Tories supported capitalism (a word not generally used in the modern sense until the mid-nineteenth century). It wasn't until 1918 when universal male suffrage was introduced that working class people had any representation. The UK has never had a strong tradition of ideological socialism in the same way many European countries have.

I don't think you were wrong to query to OP description of Conservatives Caleo. They seemed right to me (and those who wrote them) but I doubt they are definitive.

In the end I come back to PR so the country can choose their own coalition, instead of having it imposed upon them. Does this mean the Conservative Party will cling together against such an outcome or shatter and form smaller parties. If it does the second, does the coalition of the left - the Labour Party - become a similar problem?

Fleurpepper

The ERG is the massive elephant in the room- and it is time we all knew who they are, who pulls their strings, and why- and what their real aims are.

Agreed, especially as we all pay their membership fees which they claim on expenses. Around £2000 per annum I believe. Some are very obvious members, people like Francois, Baker, Rees-Mogg, Braverman, Patel, Jenkins but others are more low key.

Talking of Isabel Oakeshott, as a pp was; this was on her Twitter feed this morning;

What is the point of the Tories? They've lost control of our borders, lost control of law and order, can't run the NHS and are taxing us to high heaven. We routinely have no trains, tubes or ambulances. They deserve political oblivion

MaizieD

Katie59

Politics seems to be polarizing just like the US, the right wing holding the Tories in their grip and very likely the left wing Labour. Unless there is a miracle Labour will win the next GE, that does not mean the ERG will go away, they will bide their time until the next opportunity. It doesnt take a large group to hold the leader to ransome

Labour is doing it's best to disassociate itself from the 'left wing'. Though as people seem to differ wildly over what they think constitutes 'left wing' it's hard to tell just where it is at the moment.

I assume by your use of the word 'miracle', Katie59, that you don't really want to see a Labour party in power?

I think that, unless the tories come up with a radical change of plan for the economy. they will be wiped out at the next GE and a great many of the ERG group will lose their seats.

I hope that Labour will carry out their promise to reform the House of Lords and get rid of many of Johnson's corrupt crony appointments.

It is utterly ridiculous that there are more peers in parliament than there are MPs. The Labour party's reform of the Lords in the 1990s was meant to reduce the size of the HoL. The rapid turnover of tory PMs in the last 6 years has also meant that they've been able to pack the Lords with tory supporters and increase its size.

I would like to see Starmer as PM
The Labour left wing elected Milliband and Corbyn they are just as vulnerable to extremists.

DaisyAnne

Katie59

Politics seems to be polarizing just like the US, the right wing holding the Tories in their grip and very likely the left wing Labour. Unless there is a miracle Labour will win the next GE, that does not mean the ERG will go away, they will bide their time until the next opportunity. It doesnt take a large group to hold the leader to ransome

I don't know where your view of the current Labour Party comes from Katie but perhaps I can guess.

To me the current Labour party is mainly democratic socialist with a minority of radical left. We certainly hear from the extreme left (including on here), but they seem to have very little power within this current iteration of Labour.

Of course they don’t, finally they have got the message that until they are elected they have no influence, they will have their say when they win a GE.

Thanks Growstuff. I think I was mistaken mainly because I presumed there was a feeling for ideological socialism in Britain as on Continent.

Look north DaisyAnne here we have Tories and LABOUR in coalition ,all in an effort to keep the people who were elected in councils out of power .Now that is just not right .
The SNP /Scottish government is by far the most left leaning party in the "UK".Thats why they have won election after election after election .Ms Sturgeon is still in the job ,now on her 5th PM !!
One such coalition, just last week, voted down the supplying of defribrillators to all the schools in their area ???
My very good friend started this initiative and these life saving pieces of equipment were initially installed in empty telephone kiosks ,now they can be found in most public spaces and have saved countless lives .
The political ethos of these Red/Blue Tories it seems is more important than lives....but we knew that !

Caleo

Thanks Growstuff. I think I was mistaken mainly because I presumed there was a feeling for ideological socialism in Britain as on Continent.

The Labour Party grew out of trade unionism, Fabianism and non-conformist religious beliefs. It grew to represent the newly politically franchised electorate and has always been a coalition of beliefs. It's never been a Marxist party.

HousePlantQueen

Fleurpepper

The ERG is the massive elephant in the room- and it is time we all knew who they are, who pulls their strings, and why- and what their real aims are.

Agreed, especially as we all pay their membership fees which they claim on expenses. Around £2000 per annum I believe. Some are very obvious members, people like Francois, Baker, Rees-Mogg, Braverman, Patel, Jenkins but others are more low key.

Talking of Isabel Oakeshott, as a pp was; this was on her Twitter feed this morning;

^What is the point of the Tories? They've lost control of our borders, lost control of law and order, can't run the NHS and are taxing us to high heaven. We routinely have no trains, tubes or ambulances. They deserve political oblivion^

Be careful what you wish for! Don't forget that Oakeshott is the OH of Reform UK's Richard Tice.

growstuff

HousePlantQueen

Fleurpepper

The ERG is the massive elephant in the room- and it is time we all knew who they are, who pulls their strings, and why- and what their real aims are.

Agreed, especially as we all pay their membership fees which they claim on expenses. Around £2000 per annum I believe. Some are very obvious members, people like Francois, Baker, Rees-Mogg, Braverman, Patel, Jenkins but others are more low key.

Talking of Isabel Oakeshott, as a pp was; this was on her Twitter feed this morning;

^What is the point of the Tories? They've lost control of our borders, lost control of law and order, can't run the NHS and are taxing us to high heaven. We routinely have no trains, tubes or ambulances. They deserve political oblivion^

Be careful what you wish for! Don't forget that Oakeshott is the OH of Reform UK's Richard Tice.

I was tempted to respond to a retweet of that tweet with:

'What's the point of Isabel Oakshott?'

She seems to be totally oblivious to the fact that it is the party she supports/supported that has brought us to this condition over the past 12 years...

Fleurpepper

The ERG is the massive elephant in the room- and it is time we all knew who they are, who pulls their strings, and why- and what their real aims are.

Here are the Tory MPs who are paying taxpayer cash to the European Research Group

leftfootforward.org/2021/08/here-are-the-tory-mps-who-are-paying-tax-payer-cash-to-the-european-research-group/

Note how many ERGs have been involved in scandals. Have they been shielded by the ERG?

That list is quite shocking, varian. Who do these people think they are, to take our money and try to remain secret? I despair of this country.

It is shocking. I hope that all Tory voters read and inwardly digest this list and don't vote for them at the next election.