Scarf in Suffragette colours not allowed in Scottish Parliament.

You know, I think FannyCornforth had a point.

I know the film, and got the reference, but still have no idea what it has to do with GN.

Are there share buttons on here? I don't seem to have any.

It's just a movie reference

We chat about the discussions here at times and that's allowed, after all there are share buttons underneath every thread. Not that I've personally seen gransnet shared anywhere.

It's very different than this place, in perdon discussion. Here any idea that you can talk amongst peers in a comfortable way, actually getting to know each other and to understand how our opinions came to be, as individuals seems to be frowned upon

Or used as ammunition

It's a shame really because it means it's hard to converse with people on other threads despite what people might have in common.

The movie reference was the film "Fight Club" and the movie line was "The first rule about fight club is that we don't talk about fight club"

It did get a laugh here

VioletSky

Is the first rule of gransnet, we don't talk about gransnet? Lol

Ça veut dire quoi?

VioletSky

Is the first rule of gransnet, we don't talk about gransnet? Lol

Eh?

Is the first rule of gransnet, we don't talk about gransnet? Lol

It kept you on track with the thread topic ?

FarNorth

That's a pity "VS* they might have taken your mind off personal differences and kept you on track with the topic of the thread.

Family games night worked just as well

Galaxy

But you judged those girls on how they looked. You didnt ask their pronouns or ask their gender identity. You knew they were girls. Yes of course you could be wrong they may have been a group of men

Does Glorianny perhaps mean that they were girls / young women because of how they looked and that if they had presented differently enough to resemble men then they would, in fact, be men?
Unless of course they were then masculine looking women.
I guess it's up to them which they are, from moment to moment. So, really, we all (including Glorianny) should refer to everyone as persons unless told otherwise.

Women's sport is a mess and focussing on transwomen will do nothing to clear up that mess.
Why do you ignore the suffering of black women in sport I thought you cared about women?

Women of any colour are not comparable with male people who have been known to be male until shortly before entering women's sport.

I have sympathy for anyone who has been thought to be female all their life and has then been found to have a DSD.

I have no sympathy for male people who claim to be female.

No I think if you asked Sean Connery he would say he was a man
🤔

Sean Connery: Date of death: 31 October 2020

That's a pity "VS* they might have taken your mind off personal differences and kept you on track with the topic of the thread.

Galaxy

But you judged those girls on how they looked. You didnt ask their pronouns or ask their gender identity. You knew they were girls. Yes of course you could be wrong they may have been a group of men

Wrt my earlier post (reproduced above) the 'girls' you mentioned would be treated in a particular way because they were, presumably, perceived to be girls by others - bouncers, bar staff, other girls and boys in the club.

How does this lead to 'therefore TWAW'?

Doodledog

Glorianny I'll leave aside the 'diatribe' jibe; but can you please explain the logic of this?
. . . . any policy which assumes women can be identified or recognised simply by their external appearance necessarily impacts on what is found acceptable for women. That transwomen therefore are women.

I understand (but disagree with) the first bit. I think that gender norms have been breaking down slowly but steadily for years. It is easy to see across three generations of my own family, and I'm sure that when the little ones grow up the differences between them and my children's generation will be even more apparent. I can also see that it is only because people can tell the sex of others that any remaining strictures can be applied, but I would argue that it makes far more sense to fight that than to mistreat people like Shape Shifter. But anyway, so far so good. What I don't understand is how you jump from that to 'therefore TWAW'. That just doesn't compute.

You won't be surprised to hear that I also disagree with That the law as it stands is adequate and provides protection for female spaces whilst enabling trans people to live safely in society. Of course it isn't. The law is confused and confusing, and too few people (me included) know the difference between a Stonewall policy and an actual law. When this happens, people tend to err on the side of caution and fight shy of doing sensible things (such as refuse entry to women-only swimming sessions to men) in case they are accidentally offending. I'm thinking here of the man who wormed his way into the 'women, mothers and toddlers' session my friend attended, whose genitals were clearly visible through (and around) his bathing costume, and of the young man who made all the fuss about going into a Monsoon dressing room to try on a prom dress. The law may have been in place on both of those occasions, but the mythology around trans issues often trumps it.

Any thoughts yet? I'm particularly interested in the link between external appearance impacting on gender expectations and 'TWAW'.

Glorianny

I see you’re still conflating the issues of black female athletes with the cheating transwomen.

Would you stand up in TV and say you condone cheating by males if it results in benefits to males?
If you condone cheating in one area . . .

G or T
I'm not conflating anything.

Yes you are.

Why do you ignore the suffering of black women in sport I thought you cared about women.

You are accusing me of not caring about females.
Evidence or retraction of accusation please

You are also accusing me of not caring about black women in sport.

Where have I said that?
Evidence or retraction of accusation please.

I remember pointing out that it’s an important issue which needs addressing. just in case you missed it.

Are you implying the problems of black females in sport is cheating like the cheating of transwomen that you evidently condone?
If that is what you are implying, then I, and I’m sure the black female athletes, find the implication that they are cheating, highly offensive!

I would stand up on in public and say that I don’t condone allowing males to cheat in order to benefit males.
I’m still interested to know whether you would back up your claims by standing up in public and saying you condone allowing males to cheat in order to the benefit of males and to the detriment of females ?

You could start by posting exactly those words -that you, G or T or whoever, condone allowing males/TW to cheat in order to benefit males on GN.
But you won’t.
Re OP. I care about females enough to know it’s wrong to tell a female that their choice of colours is wrong, (because it might offend males and TRA).

But you judged those girls on how they looked. You didnt ask their pronouns or ask their gender identity. You knew they were girls. Yes of course you could be wrong they may have been a group of men

Galaxy

I dont think it's illegal Glorianny .
How did you decide they were girls.

I've explained that Galaxy and that I could be wrong. Why won't you accept that I, you and every other person living in the real world make daily judgements about someone's gender and there is absolutely nothing in the gender critical feminist agenda that will widen or change those perceptions or judgements. In fact they will have exactly the opposite effect as women who present differently will be labelled trans, called men and abused in toilets and changing rooms. It is already happening. And it isn't me or any other intersectional feminist who is the cause.
www.refinery29.com/en-gb/bathroom-transphobia-butch-women

The men would have no bags of sugar. So we shouldnt complain about that because of other issues in sport.

Galaxy

So if tomorrow it was decided that all women should carry 3 bags of sugar whilst they compete in sport, nobody should complain about that because some other difficulties exist.

Well if all women were permitted to participate and all carried the same amount of sugar at least they would all be equal.

If say white women were only permitted to compete if they agreed to be medicated (say use the contraceptive pill) would that be OK?

As I said I really don't know the sex of most people all my views are faced on gender as are most people's

What is gender? I thought according to the trans lobby it can be totally fluid, changing several times during a lifetime, even on a daily basis for some. Eddie Izzard can slip from one to the other dependent on whether he's wearing heels or flat shoes. However his sex is constant. What of those of us who only have a sex? If you met me would you refer to me as genderless Rosie? Or are you basing it on stereotypical dress codes? You know those so highly enforced in the 50s?

Those select people where you do know their sex, did you have anything on which to base this knowledge?

I dont think it's illegal Glorianny .
How did you decide they were girls.

So if tomorrow it was decided that all women should carry 3 bags of sugar whilst they compete in sport, nobody should complain about that because some other difficulties exist.

Galaxy

So you have just described girls you saw on a night out on another thread. How did you judge their gender?

Crossed threads which is illegal.
I posted about girls being dressed a certain way.
Were there other people who I didn't discuss whose gender was questionable. Undoubtedly. But I wasn't writing about them. Some girls look like girls. Some girls look like boys. Some boys look like girls, Some boys look like boys I look at them and judge their gender. I may get it wrong. If I speak to them they may correct me. But once again nothing to do with sex.

Mollygo

I see you’re still conflating the issues of black female athletes with the cheating transwomen.

Would you stand up in TV and say you condone cheating by males if it results in benefits to males?
If you condone cheating in one area . . .

I'm not conflating anything.
Women's sport is a mess and focussing on transwomen will do nothing to clear up that mess.
Why do you ignore the suffering of black women in sport I thought you cared about women?

So you have just described girls you saw on a night out on another thread. How did you judge their gender?