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Scarf in Suffragette colours not allowed in Scottish Parliament.

(1001 Posts)
grannydarkhair Tue 15-Nov-22 12:11:37

During stage 2 hearings of the GRR Bill in the Scottish Parliament, women are being asked to either remove scarves knitted in Suffragette colours of green, purple and white or leave. At least one woman has chosen to leave. And yet quite a few of the MSPs are wearing Rainbow lanyards.

twitter.com/obsolesence/status/1592447547263844352?s=61&t=2RGtdfWK_cUWRQG6nAtdXw

Doodledog Thu 17-Nov-22 14:10:21

VioletSky

doodledog have you ever considered a career in politics?

No. Why do you ask?

FarNorth Thu 17-Nov-22 14:10:11

Onward I think one reason is that so many women are adapted to fit in with what the powerful people (men) want.
Women who do that successfully are those who survive and reproduce.

Another reason is that humans, in general, seem unable to cooperate for long.
History, and current news, repeatedly shows us humans trying to get one over on each other and creating arguments and wars.
It's quite depressing .

Oreo Thu 17-Nov-22 14:09:32

And another round of applause here too 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻 Doodledog

As you state, this thread wasn’t meant to be a trans thread until a poster mentioned it.It is clearly meant to be a thread to discuss the topic of women not being allowed to wear certain colours, in case they offend anyone or cause ‘dissent’ by sitting there wearing them.

Iam64 Thu 17-Nov-22 13:48:58

Another round of applause for Doodledog’s post.

OnwardandUpward Thu 17-Nov-22 13:48:16

When women know what they bring to the table they aren't afraid to eat alone. I mean, I always understood feminism to be a powerful thing, and it would be (together), but here we are, all alone and divided against each other.

No wonder it's a mans world when women can't be supportive, kind and inclusive to each other as women. How are women going to rise up together? There are so many problems across the world, which are womens problems, such as FGM and the terrible problems in Iran, girls who are excluded from education in other cultures and so much more. Our Sisters in Iran and other places in the world where women are persecuted just for being women are waiting for us to stop arguing amongst ourselves and do some good.

FarNorth Thu 17-Nov-22 13:34:34

It refers to previous posts about Shape Shifter, just after Doodledog's excellent post.
I hope you find them interesting, when you can find time to read them.

VioletSky Thu 17-Nov-22 13:31:21

Erm I dont know what that means but I better get back to work or FC will tell me all about how she never got to sit down as a TA and I will feel bad about stopping for a sandwich

FarNorth Thu 17-Nov-22 13:28:12

VioletSky how would you convince Shape Shifter that transwomen are women at all times?

VioletSky Thu 17-Nov-22 13:24:12

doodledog have you ever considered a career in politics?

Smileless2012 Thu 17-Nov-22 13:15:27

Excellent post Doodledog which as grannydarkhair has said applies to all 'trans threads'. Thank you.

What stood out for me is this: "Holding past off board experiences over people's heads to suggest that disagreement for some is more upsetting than for others is unacceptable".

When this happens it can put other posters on the back foot, raising concerns that something they post will be seen as a personal slight when that was never intended.

Baggs Thu 17-Nov-22 13:04:51

FC 😂

FannyCornforth Thu 17-Nov-22 12:47:39

Apparently that image (which I have framed) is actually anti suffrage, but I try to ignore that

FannyCornforth Thu 17-Nov-22 12:45:52

Baggs

Well said, doodledog.

In other news, scarves of suffragette colours are selling out fast 🙂

And not just for female adult humans

Baggs Thu 17-Nov-22 12:34:09

Well said, doodledog.

In other news, scarves of suffragette colours are selling out fast 🙂

Aveline Thu 17-Nov-22 12:08:58

Thank you Doodledog. The voice of reason as ever.

grannydarkhair Thu 17-Nov-22 11:53:03

Mollygo

Doodledog, thank you for the most clearly and reasonably written post about what has happened on this thread.
I fear your words will fall on some stony ground, but you have at least tried.

Imo, Doodledog’s excellent post applies to all the “trans threads.
I particularly like the final paragraph, it says exactly why I started the thread.

FarNorth Thu 17-Nov-22 11:49:26

Here is a photo of Shape Shifter.

FarNorth Thu 17-Nov-22 11:47:35

From a slightly different angle, some on here are steadfast in proclaiming 'transwomen are women'.
Yet sometimes transwomen are not even transwomen and transmen are not transmen.
They are unhappy individuals who really needed some sensitive counselling but it was never offered to them.
Trusted professional people urged them into a trans identity for who-knows-what reasons. Money, I'd guess, is a likely reason along with a wish to be important in their profession.

There are many many detransitioners, who have realised that they went wrong. Some speak out in public and here is what one of them, known as Shape Shifter, says.

(You can see Shape Shifter on YouTube, or read his Twitter.)

Parsley3 Thu 17-Nov-22 11:27:58

Doodledog well said. In the beginning I read this thread as being about a mistake made by someone in Holyrood which was later apologised for. When I came back to it all hell had broken loose about trans issues. Women’s voices must be heard. While kings are still rated as being more important than queens by the UK establishment, women cannot become complacent about anything to do with their rights.

Lathyrus Thu 17-Nov-22 11:26:44

I fully support all you have posted DD.

Mollygo Thu 17-Nov-22 11:10:34

Doodledog, thank you for the most clearly and reasonably written post about what has happened on this thread.
I fear your words will fall on some stony ground, but you have at least tried.

FannyCornforth Thu 17-Nov-22 11:07:44

What a post Doodledog! 👏

Doodledog Thu 17-Nov-22 11:03:53

The problem seems to be that there are two divergent points of view on this topic. All the reasons for feeling as we do have been given over and over by both sides. It is unlikely that these positions will alter, unless there is a change in the MO of TRAs (by which I mean the activists who disrupt feminist meetings, threaten and abuse public figures on social media and try to get those who disagree with them sacked from their jobs) and unless it becomes clear that legislators are not in the thrall of Stonewall.

That does not mean that anyone posting to say what they think is having a personal dig at anyone else. A personal dig is suggesting that other people are not 'kind' or that they are homophobic, discriminatory or bullying. Saying that their views are wrong is not personal.

There are written and unwritten rules of discussion. It is not acceptable to twist people's words to suggest that they have said, or that they think, something that they (obviously to others) neither said nor meant.

Holding past off-board experiences over people's heads to suggest that disagreement is more upsetting for some than for others is not acceptable.

Continually positioning yourself on the side of the angels with comments such as 'All I want is for people to live in peace', directly suggesting that anyone who disagrees must want them to live in perpetual torment is not acceptable.

False equivalences such as 'if you don't believe that TWAW you must also be racist and homophobic' is unacceptable.

Accusing people of 'bullying' because more of them disagree with you than agree is unacceptable, as are claims that people have been 'hounded' off the boards because they hold minority views. Similarly, the fact that more people disagree with a view than agree with it does not mean that the holders are being 'silenced', and repeated instances of 'I am so upset by this that I am not posting any more on this thread' (aka a 'flounce') is not acceptable either. Post, don't post, but don't blame others if your arguments don't hold water.

At a guess, I would say than more than 50% of the unpleasantness on 'trans' threads is not about the topic at all, but happens when unacceptable behaviour as described above comes into play, and people react. It is difficult not to on a public discussion board when the alternative is to let untrue statements stay, unchallenged, on the record. There is no 'ignore' button on GN, so nobody can opt out of seeing posts that they know are likely to rub them up the wrong way.

It has been said repeatedly that a refusal to accept that TWAW does not equate to a refusal to accept them as people, or to want them to live unmolested and happy lives, yet time and again it is suggested that this is the case. It is changes to the law that people object to, as well as changes to the language and to the custom and practice of having separate spaces for women when we are vulnerable because of being undressed, ill, in distress or unable to fight back (as in FN's examples above). Oh, and the obvious cheating in sport and now beauty contests.

This thread started as a discussion about women being asked to leave the Scottish parliament because of wearing colours that show support for female solidarity, but within a few posts the question 'is this a trans thread' was asked, and things went immediately downhill. I dare say that was inevitable though, as whereas IMO it was never a 'trans' thread, it is about the way women who oppose the GRA are repeatedly silenced, and increasingly this is overtly supported at institutional levels, and IMO it is understandable that women will feel strongly about this.

Mollygo Thu 17-Nov-22 08:31:14

VioletSky

No not just me

Thank goodeness

?????

Galaxy Thu 17-Nov-22 07:33:26

I dont know the situation in Scotland but as far as I am aware there are still ongoing legal actions by women who have been assaulted by men in prisons in England.

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