A boost for Brexit?

I think we need to see politicians proudly telling us that their children are not going to university, but pursuing
apprenticeships instead.

Ilovecheese

I think we need to see politicians proudly telling us that their children are not going to university, but pursuing
apprenticeships instead.

I'm not holding my breath on that one!

JenniferEccles

As long as we have the ridiculous situation whereby those on benefits get more than they would if they were working, I fear we may have to rely on migrant workers to fill the low paid jobs.

I was astonished to read the other day that there are six million people claiming universal credit.
Six million! How on earth has the welfare state been allowed to mushroom to such an extent?

That’s the first job surely, to get people off benefits and out to work.
Obviously of course there are some who genuinely need help, but to the tune of six million?😮

Are you aware that a significant percent of those claiming Universal Credit are working?

Also, pray tell how it's possible for the majority to receive more in benefits than if they work.

Grantanow

The solution to the unwillingness of school pupils to seek apprenticeships or otherwise pursue technical training is to reduce the number of university places by closing the worst performing universities and departments and closing courses which frankly attract the weakest entrants. The money saved could be redirected to further education colleges which have suffered from underfunding for years. It may also be worth reviewing whether making nursing a graduate profession has excluded a swathe of good candidates.

How about reducing the eye watering salaries which people in finance jobs can earn?

If you're an AA*A student and were offered the choice between a PPE at Oxford (and all the doors it opens) and a higher level apprenticeship or "vocational" degree, which would you choose?

My OH runs an MRes in biochemistry with a work placement at a Russell Group uni and struggles to attract UK students. Over half his students are from overseas.

JenniferEccles Tue 22-Nov-22 14:05:43
As long as we have the ridiculous situation whereby those on benefits get more than they would if they were working, I fear we may have to rely on migrant workers to fill the low paid jobs.

It also includes disabled people who may or may not be working depending on the severity of their disability.

However, there is a point where you are better off on benefits and/or tax credits. My daughter's husband chooses and wants to work even though he could stay at home and care for her. The moment they go a penny over the threshold which is not staggeringly high, everything stops for them including help with prescriptions for my daughter's many ailments. Social Care is impacted because, although they remain entitled, budgets are cut and the SW's reckon if my DIL stopped work, he could care for her despite his poor mental health when he did.
The devil is really in the detail rather than just looking at a blanket figure.

You need to clarify your facts JenniferEccles. Many - in fact 40% at May 2021 according to the Office for National Statistics - of those claiming Universal Credit are at work but don't earn enough, in some cases because public sector wages have been kept low by successive Tory governments leading, for example, to NHS hospitals setting up food banks for their staff. The Tories want us to believe that claimants are all workshy scroungers but that is not the case and whatever benefits fraud there is pales into insignificance compared with tax avoidance by the rich.

Your figure of 6 million is very misleading because it includes all State benefits which would include disability allowances of various kinds, pension top up credits for the poorest pensioners, etc.

“We agree on this one, some employers big and small need reminding that it’s their workforce that is the engine of the company and without an efficient well paid workforce the Company/Business will not be going anywhere.”

I have to disagree. here are 2 low wage sectors

Supermarkets are very competitive, wages at the shop floor level are low, any increase is going to go straight on to food prices.

Care industry, any increase goes on to either council care fees or privately paid fees, care homes are closing because fees are too low

Of course the low paid should get more but the consumers will pay. Starmer hasn’t said how much he will raise the minimum wage to, it needs to be about £15 an hour but I won’t hold my breath.

Katie59 the two cheapest supermarkets have the top hourly rate Aldi & Lidl, if they can manage it so can the big boys.

As for carers, unfortunately the majority of homes and home visit carers are privatised companies, they put profits before staff hence low wages and moral for the workforce. Shortsightedness on behalf of the employers.

There are plenty of people working in both full and p/t jobs who are so badly paid they are entitled to some universal credit JenniferEccles. They will be in those figures.

I think that too much emphasis is put upon university. Lots of young people are pushed in that direction without being suited to that sort of education.

It doesn't always result in good careers. Architects train for many years but not many of them are going to be the new Norman Foster (Millau Viaduct) and IM Pei (Louvre pyramid). Most will work on much smaller projects. Many people who go into accountancy or the law often change careers within a few years of qualifying.

Some years ago, the BT Research Centre at Martlesham in Suffolk decided to review their graduate recruitment process. They advertised for apprentices and held an Open Day. The interested youngsters arrived in the morning and the day started with refreshments and mingling with BT staff. Some were invited to stay for lunch and they went on to further meetings and discussions. The son of some friends went along and he passed the selection process. Still there I think.

Unfortunately we have lost most of our industrial base and so the number of apprenticeships has reduced.

JenniferEccles

As long as we have the ridiculous situation whereby those on benefits get more than they would if they were working, I fear we may have to rely on migrant workers to fill the low paid jobs.

I was astonished to read the other day that there are six million people claiming universal credit.
Six million! How on earth has the welfare state been allowed to mushroom to such an extent?

That’s the first job surely, to get people off benefits and out to work.
Obviously of course there are some who genuinely need help, but to the tune of six million?😮

The precursors to UC (working tax credit etc) were brought in to assist those workers on low wages. Unfortunately it was seen by many of the large companies at that time as a means of increasing their profits and therefore the dividends that they could pay. After all, why pay workers more when the state will pock up the short fall?

Dinahmo There's a huge amount of snobbery surrounding "vocational" higher education. I'd love to know how many Eton alumni go into trades.

I think we also make a mistake by thinking that "vocational" courses are low level. For example, surveying degrees include a huge amount of maths, physics, chemistry and engineering. It's not a course for "non academic" teenagers. Countries such as Germany and Holland realised that decades ago, which is why their technical universities are so respected.

Unfortunately, in the UK, there are still people in the UK who think if youngsters aren't top notch academics, they should go and do a "trade".

Katie59

If we are to do all the low skilled work with UK workers we have got to be much more efficient how we direct the Labour force.
If low skilled work it defined as training that lasts a week or so it includes, cleaners, care workers, food processing, hotels, catering and many others.
Starmer did not say how he was going to redirect the workforce, it would probably need some kind of compulsion to achieve it.

If low skilled work it defined as training that lasts a week or so it includes, cleaners, care workers, food processing, hotels, catering and many others

Sorry, but I don't understand that.

Care workers, catering staff etc need far more than a week's training.
Many jobs like that which may not require a degree are not what I'd call low-skilled.

Perhaps I misunderstood.

growstuff there is nothing wrong with learning a trade, we all need tradesmen at some time and other.

Katie59

If we are to do all the low skilled work with UK workers we have got to be much more efficient how we direct the Labour force.
If low skilled work it defined as training that lasts a week or so it includes, cleaners, care workers, food processing, hotels, catering and many others.
Starmer did not say how he was going to redirect the workforce, it would probably need some kind of compulsion to achieve it.

Even the so called 'low skill' workers deserve a decent living wage. They contribute as much as anyone else does to the success of the enterprise they work for. And to the profits of the business if it's a profit making enterprise.

JenniferEccles I was astonished to read the other day that there are six million people claiming universal credit. Six million! How on earth has the welfare state been allowed to mushroom to such an extent?

That’s the first job surely, to get people off benefits and out to work. Obviously of course there are some who genuinely need help, but to the tune of six million?

Good question. I'm quite curious also. Difficult for my husband to find workers. Yet masses of people are off on benefits.

Shall we have some facts?
Actually not 6m but 1.7m people on universal credit are looking for work, the rest are either in work or are unable to work. It’s all in this bulletin.
www.gov.uk/government/statistics/universal-credit-statistics-29-april-2013-to-13-january-2022/universal-credit-statistics-29-april-2013-to-13-january-2022
Slightly out of date, but as it is a 8 year comparison that doesn’t make a difference, no doubt the very latest are available but it won’t have changed much. Note geographical variation, and age of claimants.

A chef of course trains for a year or two for sure, kitchen hands and waiters start with very basic instructions, new supermarket workers a couple of days ( I train them), care worker woulD have an introduction then work alongside an experienced colleague.

They all deserve more but the only way that is going to happen is for the minimum wage to be increased a lot

Katie59

A chef of course trains for a year or two for sure, kitchen hands and waiters start with very basic instructions, new supermarket workers a couple of days ( I train them), care worker woulD have an introduction then work alongside an experienced colleague.

They all deserve more but the only way that is going to happen is for the minimum wage to be increased a lot

Any chef worthy of the title chef as opposed to a cook trains for a hell of a lot longer than a year or two.

To become a silver service waiter/tress takes a considerable amount of time.

Kitchen hands are an integral part of a kitchen brigade.

My sister is a care worker, she has on the job training along with having to take and pass accredited exams to gain salary increases and to be able to perform certain caring tasks

I have absolutely no knowledge regarding the training of shop/supermarket staff other than the Waitrose/ John Lewis training scheme which appears to be pretty inclusive and extensive.

Not all employers are participating in the so called race to the bottom. Unfortunately as in most things in this world, bad gets the publicity whereas good seldom does.

Carers get an extra payment in Scotland .its not as much aas the government would like to give but we are ona FIXED BUDGET which means we have no borrowing powers.Carers get a twice yearly payment of @£240 .LIke I said its not enough but its a wee bonus for now until we can stop mitigating tory policies i.e the bedroom tax which costs us 600 million a year

GrannyGravy13

I have never agreed with low paid cheap labour anyone in employment should not have to rely on a top-up from the Government of the day to supplement their income.

Equal emphasis on skills in senior schools just not pushing all into University would also be an advancement in my opinion and go towards easing the UK’s skill shortage.

More recognition and pay for what are deemed low skill but vital jobs would also help, along with affordable childcare for the under fives.

Good post GG13.

Norah

JenniferEccles I was astonished to read the other day that there are six million people claiming universal credit. Six million! How on earth has the welfare state been allowed to mushroom to such an extent?

That’s the first job surely, to get people off benefits and out to work. Obviously of course there are some who genuinely need help, but to the tune of six million?

Good question. I'm quite curious also. Difficult for my husband to find workers. Yet masses of people are off on benefits.

It depends what kind of vacancies he has and where.

GrannyGravy13

growstuff there is nothing wrong with learning a trade, we all need tradesmen at some time and other.

I agree with you, but until you can persuade parents of pupils at public schools to learn a trade as an alternative to going to the City or becoming a barrister, I believe that every pupil should have the right to aspire to join them ... and that's going to mean going to university.

MaizieD

I'm sure that the CBI, which appears to be crying out for more workers, will be deeply unimpressed by Sunak refusing to look at all ways to attract more.

Starmer is saying that business cannot go on paying low wages, which has nothing to do with Brexit at all. It's a socialist 'thing': a weird notion that all workers should be fairly paid.

How any of this can be interpreted as a 'boost for Brexit' is a mystery to me, but I suppose the Telegraph has to keep its readers happy.

The 'red wall' voters are already turning back to Labour, Ug.

Yes, why the "boost for Brexit?" Irrelevant.

btw, Starmer made it quite clear in subsequent interviews that he would allow lower paid necessary workers in IN THE SIRT TERM but we have to up skill - and up-pay to home grown carers ands on.

edit - IN THE SHORT TERM