A boost for Brexit?

I have visited the Brexit Witness Archive,Hammond was clearly peeved that he was not involved,

As the second most important person in government I'm not surprised.

And if Davis managed to sell May the lie that the Leave Campaigners had been selling the country then she's even more of an idiot than I thought possible. Aren't politicians supposed to have a brain? Be able to sort fact from fiction and act rationally?

4 unsuccessful PMs? when did we last have a successful one?

The word I used was 'idiotic'.

Our last 'successful' PMs were Blair and Brown. Whatever their faults they genuinely tried to improve life in the UK.

I have visited the Brexit Witness Archive,Hammond was clearly peeved that he was not involved, reading deeper is seems David Davies had Mays ear foolishly suggesting that.
“a trade deal with EU would be the easiest ever” he really believed that the UK could cherry pick the bits it wanted.

At the time I thought Davies was the worst kind of “snake oil” salesman selling an idea that could not possibly be achieved.

If she really was taking his advice it was hopelessly out of touch with the financial markets who knew an easy deal was not likely to happen. In my book Mays biggest error was calling for an election and loosing the majority, quite likely she would have got a deal but it would have been no better than Johnson had.

4 unsuccessful PMs? when did we last have a successful one?.

In fairness to TM it was the ERG red lines, she was only the messenger who was trying to get a deal, then the Unionists held her to ransome.

Did you not read the bits from the Hammond interview that I posted? She didn't have a clue, did she? Just read the speech without realising that it left absolutely no room for manoeuvre. Incompetence of the highest order. Hadn't even discussed it in Cabinet.

Why have we had four idiotic PMs in succession?

In fairness to TM it was the ERG red lines, she was only the messenger who was trying to get a deal, then the Unionists held her to ransome.

Then Johnson arrived in No 10, haggled for a year and ended up with exactly the same deal that May could have had, then spent the next year trying to wriggle out of what they did sign.

The EU did not give an inch it was “their way or the highway”and “no deal” was unthinkable (despite the threats).

Ah yes, Theresa May's famous red lines

I don't know if anyone else has seen this, The Brexit Witness Archive. It has a collection of interviews with key people from both sides of the Brexit divide.

Philip Hammond on Theresa May is very interesting. Those 'red lines' were set at her first speech on Brexit. This is what Hammond has to say (but the whole lot is worth reading)

I did ask her about Brexit, and she said to me, ‘Brexit means Brexit.’ That was it. That was the only discussion we had about it.

Look, what happened, I was completely stunned by the speech that she made at the Conservative Party Conference in October 2016. I hadn’t seen the relevant part of it in advance. I’d had no input to the speech. Nick Timothy kept me completely away from it. I did see some text on the economy the day before, but I had no idea that she was going to describe Brexit in the hardest possible terms.

I was absolutely horrified by what I was hearing.
.........

My assessment of Theresa May’s Prime Ministership, in terms of Brexit, is that she dug a 20-foot-deep hole in October 2016 in making that speech and, from that moment onwards, cupful by cupful of earth at a time, was trying to fill it in a bit so that she wasn’t in such a deep mess. Every speech she made on Europe since then was rowing back from the original proposition. Lancaster House rowed back from what she implied in the October speech. Florence rowed back a bit further. Mansion House a bit further still. Every time we moved on this, it was to move backwards from the brink.

......

It was a disaster on all fronts, a total unmitigated disaster that scarred her Prime Ministership and should have sealed Nick Timothy’s fate, but I think she only realised later how badly that had constrained her ability to deliver any kind of practical Brexit at all.

ukandeu.ac.uk/brexit-witness-archive/philip-hammond/

Expand the section 'The First May Government'

"The UK could have joined EFTA but we objected to being bound by EU regulations in principle, although we did adopt much existing regulation en mass the aim is to have separate UK law AND diverge from EU law."

Ah yes, Theresa May's famous red lines

Norway is a member of European Free Trade Area and European Economic Area both organizations are regulated from Brussels and respect (obey) EU regulations and laws. Norway, Iceland and Lichtenstein have separate agreements for some sectors, Fisheries, Agriculture and others but do not compete with EU producers.

The UK could have joined EFTA but we objected to being bound by EU regulations in principle, although we did adopt much existing regulation en mass the aim is to have separate UK law AND diverge from EU law.

An example of this is aviation, previously EASA regulated aircraft safety and licensing for UK, standards are recognized globally. Now our own CAA is the regulator but nobody outside the UK recognizes licences or safety procedures, so all pilots and aircraft that fly overseas still have to be regulated to EASA standards.

Although UK producers can apply UK standards for domestic consumption, if they export to EU their standards apply and need to be inspected to prove it.

Madness

I still struggle to understand how the hell the UK ended up here.

So do an awful lot of people, Normandygirl. I sometimes think that the lying b*stard ringleaders should get the Clarkson treatment... They really have ruined people's lives.

Katie59

Membership might follow a period of CU or EEA membership but even that is a distant prospect currently.

I agree.
You can't be in the CU if you are not an EU member state. Norway has already vetoed any chance of being in the EEA. Understandable really, as the UK economy is much bigger than the existing members and would put them at a severe disadvantage.
Rejoining the EU is not in our hands but the EU's, they would have to invite us to apply after approval of all member states so that would be an uphill struggle, especially when we have proven we can't even keep to the terms of the WA. The terms of our membership would be nothing like the the seat at the top table that we previously enjoyed, no opt outs, no veto's, no refunds, acceptance of schengen and the euro currency etc. Terms that even staunch remainers might struggle to accept. We cannot ever get back all that has been lost.
So it will take at least 15 years to end up in a position that is far worse than when we started this extraordinarily stupid wilful act of self harm. I still struggle to understand how the hell the UK ended up here.

Membership might follow a period of CU or EEA membership but even that is a distant prospect currently.

Katie59

In maybe 5 yrs time I think it may be possible to go groveling back to the EU for a CU but it will mean accepting their rules and laws.
I really am not expecting it to happen even with a Labour government.

I never found it to be a problem to accept the EU's 'rules and laws' (especially as the UK was instrumental in promoting many of them).

Oddly enough, no Leave voter has really been able to say which of those rules and laws they were unhappy with.

I think that the EU would, eventually, be OK with re-admitting the UK (or what is left of it) given a government which could be more realistic and pragmatic about the advantages of membership. I think the current tory party would have to be totally changed or eliminated, though... And the architects of Brexit never again allowed to fill any position of power or influence.

I agree with you about the Tories who are still controlled by the ultra right wing brexit brigade - the ERG.

However given that most Labour MPs, most Labour members and most Labour voters supported Remain, and it is by no means certain that Labour will gain an overall majority at the next GE, I think that negotiations between Labour and the other progressive parties - the Liberal Democrats, the Alliance Party of NI, the Greens, SNP and Plaid Cymru might well result in the LP leadership having to accommodate to a more pro-EU policy.

The Lib Dem roadmap back to EU sanity is commendable but as the Lib Dems won't be in power any time soon one has to ask whether the Tories or Labour would implement it. The likelihood seems low given their fear of admitting anything needs to be done to remedy the Brexit catastrophe.

At their 2022 Spring Conference, Liberal Democrat members endorsed a four stage roadmap to establish the UK’s future trading relationship with Europe, benefitting British businesses and families. It starts by acknowledging that ties between the UK and Europe have been deeply damaged by years of haggling and will have to be forged in a new way gradually over time.

The four-stage plan is as follows:

Taking immediate action to improve links with our European neighbours, including building closer ties in education by reforming the government’s Turing scheme.

Further steps to build confidence and establish stronger relationships with Europe, including seeking cooperation agreements with EU agencies, returning to Erasmus Plus and seeking to reach a UK-EU agreement on asylum seekers.

Deepening trade with Europe, including by negotiating greater access for our world-leading UK food and animal products to the Single Market, securing deals on sector-specific work visas and establishing mutual recognition of professional qualifications.

Once the trading relationship between the UK and the EU is deepened, and the ties of trust and friendship are renewed, aim to place the UK–EU relationship on a more formal and stable footing by seeking to join the Single Market.

In maybe 5 yrs time I think it may be possible to go groveling back to the EU for a CU but it will mean accepting their rules and laws.
I really am not expecting it to happen even with a Labour government.

varian

Politicians can no longer deny the wre kage of brexit

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/jan/01/wreckage-of-brexit-politicians-denial

A good article except for his analysis of Starmer's position. I don't think he is trying to win over the red wall, rather he is being brutally honest, unusual for a politician, I know.
There is no point in any politician talking about rejoining the SM or CU because it is not possible to do that and foolish to pretend that it is a possibility. These are benefits only available to EU member states and even joining the EEA has been closed off as that requires the approval of the other EEA members. Norway has already said a firm NO to that route.
Whilst Tory mp's may secretly acknowledge the disaster that Brexit has been, they could never publicly admit that, as the first question will be " What are you going to do to rectify it?"
There is nothing they can do, not an answer the voting public will want to hear. So, denial of the harm caused is their only route.
Brexit really does mean Brexit it saddens me to say.

Politicians can no longer deny the wre kage of brexit

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/jan/01/wreckage-of-brexit-politicians-denial

Simply more examples of the joy that Brexit keeps on giving! (NB Satirically meant!).

A largely accurate article, we have to remember that the CAP was brought in to ensure that Europe could be largely self sufficient in food, it mostly achieved that. There has been cheaper food available globally, which is fine in times of plenty but in times of shortage prices skyrocket as we have seem recently

There is no doubt that the Australia deal could be a real problem in coming years for livestock farmers

Farmer's verdict on brexit

www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/dec/29/uk-farmers-impact-brexit-trade-deal-losing-common-agricultural-policy

..they are too busy helping migrant to cross the channel in any case.

What an unpleasant thing to say.

Whitewavemark2

More pleasure to come?

“THE SUPPLY CHAIN IS GOING TO COLLAPSE!
Customs checks for goods entering the UK from the EU have yet to be imposed. They start next year. The effect is likely to be catastrophic. We get 40% of our food from EU countries. Brexit has so much more to give!”
Rejoin and reform.

The Border Farce will just continue waving everything through, unless you are in NI, they are too busy helping migrant to cross the channel in any case.

More pleasure to come?

“THE SUPPLY CHAIN IS GOING TO COLLAPSE!
Customs checks for goods entering the UK from the EU have yet to be imposed. They start next year. The effect is likely to be catastrophic. We get 40% of our food from EU countries. Brexit has so much more to give!”
Rejoin and reform.

varian

The government’s next fleet of armoured ministerial cars will be made in Germany because supply chain issues hampered by Brexit mean no British manufacturer is able to meet its requirements, The Independent has learned.

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/uk-ministerial-government-cars-made-in-germany-audi-b2250544.html

I was just going to post that.

Also our car production has fallen dramatically.

We were warned this would happen.

Project fear they all said😡😡😡