A boost for Brexit?

volver

^the only reason scientists aren't grounded in history and philosophy of science is lack of time and money.^

em...point of order..... 😉

Seconded!

Who says scientists don't know about history and philosophy of science?

PS. Actually, it's so laughable, it's not even worth a comment.

GrannyGravy13

Caleo

The matter of the dispute between Growstuff and GrannyGravy is a matter of what's in the curriculum.

All curriculums , including scientific and manual skills, should ideally include history and philosophy of their particular subject. The only reason scientists aren't grounded in history and philosophy of science is lack of time and money.

Manual and low skilled work has long been viewed as having no intellectual or emotional value . This attitude must change so that manual and low skilled labour is valued according to the same criteria as other labour.

Good post Caleo

Trades folks have to do NVQ’s which are updated regularly to keep up with the latest regulations, particularly electrical and gas regs.

I really have nothing against degrees we have AC who have them.

I just think that the education system is geared to passing as opposed to all round educating.

What about female trades folk?

growstuff

GrannyGravy13

Caleo

The matter of the dispute between Growstuff and GrannyGravy is a matter of what's in the curriculum.

All curriculums , including scientific and manual skills, should ideally include history and philosophy of their particular subject. The only reason scientists aren't grounded in history and philosophy of science is lack of time and money.

Manual and low skilled work has long been viewed as having no intellectual or emotional value . This attitude must change so that manual and low skilled labour is valued according to the same criteria as other labour.

Good post Caleo

Trades folks have to do NVQ’s which are updated regularly to keep up with the latest regulations, particularly electrical and gas regs.

I really have nothing against degrees we have AC who have them.

I just think that the education system is geared to passing as opposed to all round educating.

What about female trades folk?

Trades Folks is inclusive *growstuff^

We have female and male tradespeople coming through our trade counter daily.

How many female yardies do you employ?

growstuff

How many female yardies do you employ?

We do not have yardies per se.

But our female employees have all had Fork Lift training and have their certification.

When I was more hands on in the day to day running of the business at least one day a week I would be on Construction Sites.

Not sure what your point is?

Equal opportunities for male and females in the 21st C, it’s illegal to discriminate on the grounds of sex

My ex worked in a builders' merchant yard when I first met him. It's a national company and I'm sure you've heard of them. He became a branch manager and stayed with the company for years. However, he'd reached his ceiling and left to do a degree in surveying and became chartered. After working as a surveyor for a few years, he then left and formed his own property development business and is now a multi-millionaire.

As a result of his earlier career, he knows a fair bit about building materials, but he could not have done what he went on to do, if he hadn't done the surveying degree. The reason he's a successful landlord and multi-millionaire is that he's a savvy buyer. He inspects properties himself before he buys them and knows which ones will require minimum maintenance. He also inspects the properties himself and keeps them well-maintained. He can just look at a building and tell you whether it's got damp, subsidence, rot or whatever.

However, his real passion is literature and drama. His parents discouraged him from going to university to study English, which is what he really wanted to do. Who knows how his life would have worked out? I have no idea whether he would have been happier. Thankfully, he didn't discourage his own children from doing so-called "useless" subjects and they've not regretted their choices.

Degrees can open doors which people who don't have them sometimes don't even seem to know exist. In any case, try telling the parents who spend thousands on private schools for their offspring, so they have a better chance of becoming doctors, barristers or financiers that being an electrician, a plumber or a hairdresser is just the same.

GrannyGravy13

growstuff

How many female yardies do you employ?

We do not have yardies per se.

But our female employees have all had Fork Lift training and have their certification.

When I was more hands on in the day to day running of the business at least one day a week I would be on Construction Sites.

Not sure what your point is?

Equal opportunities for male and females in the 21st C, it’s illegal to discriminate on the grounds of sex

Sorry, my knowledge of builders' merchants is outdated. My brother-in-law is a forklift driver and doesn't have any female colleagues.

Great post at 11:28 growstuff

growstuff

GrannyGravy13

growstuff

How many female yardies do you employ?

We do not have yardies per se.

But our female employees have all had Fork Lift training and have their certification.

When I was more hands on in the day to day running of the business at least one day a week I would be on Construction Sites.

Not sure what your point is?

Equal opportunities for male and females in the 21st C, it’s illegal to discriminate on the grounds of sex

Sorry, my knowledge of builders' merchants is outdated. My brother-in-law is a forklift driver and doesn't have any female colleagues.

Ah well, perhaps we are just more forward thinking …

Our female staff are also insured on all our delivery vehicles.

My point is that people who discourage young people from going to university to go into a "trade" seem to have a very 1950s viewpoint. They seem to think people can be sorted into sheep and goats and that some people are good with their brains and others are good with their hands. In reality, people aren't like that. In the UK, people who are considered good with their brains are generally paid more and the jobs they do have more prestige. You don't have to go further than GN to see the derision with which the plumber Charlie Mullins is viewed. I have argued for years that there should be more Level 4/5 courses in plumbing, heating engineering, housekeeping, horticulture, etc. Such courses still lack prestige and there aren't enough of them. They will continue to lack prestige while parents of pupils at private schools want their offspring to go to elite universities to study traditional subjects.

My reason for bringing sexism into the discussion is that "trades" for females are generally poorly paid. I don't know why females don't opt to do more "male" trades, but the stats show that they don't. Again, it seems like a 1950s world view, where the husband went out grafting to earn money to put food on the table, while the wife earned pin money and never had any financial security. There are some people on GN who experienced that and, thankfully, attitudes are changing, despite the views of some grandparents.

As I've said before GG, you sound like a good employer.

growstuff I have not said that people should be discouraged from going to Uni.

Trade should not be a dirty word, Tradespeople should not be looked down on.

To say that some people are not aware of the doors university can open is blatant academic snobbery.

growstuff

As I've said before GG, you sound like a good employer.

We try to be.

I am absolutely useless when it comes to making tea and coffee for them though, they don’t let me anymore 🤣🤣🤣

growstuff

My point is that people who discourage young people from going to university to go into a "trade" seem to have a very 1950s viewpoint. They seem to think people can be sorted into sheep and goats and that some people are good with their brains and others are good with their hands. In reality, people aren't like that. In the UK, people who are considered good with their brains are generally paid more and the jobs they do have more prestige. You don't have to go further than GN to see the derision with which the plumber Charlie Mullins is viewed. I have argued for years that there should be more Level 4/5 courses in plumbing, heating engineering, housekeeping, horticulture, etc. Such courses still lack prestige and there aren't enough of them. They will continue to lack prestige while parents of pupils at private schools want their offspring to go to elite universities to study traditional subjects.

My reason for bringing sexism into the discussion is that "trades" for females are generally poorly paid. I don't know why females don't opt to do more "male" trades, but the stats show that they don't. Again, it seems like a 1950s world view, where the husband went out grafting to earn money to put food on the table, while the wife earned pin money and never had any financial security. There are some people on GN who experienced that and, thankfully, attitudes are changing, despite the views of some grandparents.

I think we agree mostly 👍

GrannyGravy13

growstuff I have not said that people should be discouraged from going to Uni.

Trade should not be a dirty word, Tradespeople should not be looked down on.

To say that some people are not aware of the doors university can open is blatant academic snobbery.

OK! In that case, I'm a snob, but it's so blatantly obvious from some of the posts on GN.

PS. I'm an extremely poor snob, but also a reasonably contented one, as a result of my education and not really needing money for happiness, apart from having a roof over my head and food on my table.

GrannyGravy13

growstuff

As I've said before GG, you sound like a good employer.

We try to be.

I am absolutely useless when it comes to making tea and coffee for them though, they don’t let me anymore 🤣🤣🤣

Buy a drinks gender-neutral drinks dispenser!

growstuff perhaps snobbery was the wrong word.

By the time pupils are in yr 11 they are well aware of Uni, I just wish they were equally aware of all of the options available.

It is possible to go to Uni at any stage of life. No A level requirements, an access course is sufficient for most subjects.

growstuff

Life is not just about making money.

How many decision makers (the people who control everybody's lives) started out as plumbers?

Or do you accept that only certain people can become politicians, lawyers, financiers or even techie nerds? - they're the people who ultimately control our lives and our countries.

The Pimlico Plumber is a good example. Another is Jo Sugg, who left school with 2 A levels, was apprenticed as a thatcher, started blogging, became well known and was a Strictly finalist. Another is Jake Bugg, a musician known partly for the theme to Happy Valley (repeated at the moment) and other things.

One thing the UK is excellent at producing are creatives whether actors, artists or musicians. Plus those working in special effects who are used by American film companies as well as British.

Not all the people working in these fields will have gone to uni or art school. Sadly, many parents don't recognise the talent or skills that their children may have and encourage them to study for one of the professions. I'm fully aware that there are parents who think that their children are brilliant even though their artistic/musical skills could be average or even mediocre.

GrannyGravy13

growstuff perhaps snobbery was the wrong word.

By the time pupils are in yr 11 they are well aware of Uni, I just wish they were equally aware of all of the options available.

It is possible to go to Uni at any stage of life. No A level requirements, an access course is sufficient for most subjects.

GG13 I have lost count of how many Year 11s I've taught. Unfortunately, there really aren't that many high quality options available, although things are beginning to change post 16, as everybody has to stay in education until 18.

I really wish there were more Level 4/5 routes available for those with practical skills, but there aren't. There is also the question of snobbery (and that is the right word). People pay thousands, so that their offspring go to private schools, so they can go to a prestigious university and on to a prestigious job, including running the country. Until that attitude changes (and I'm not holding my breath that it will), I honestly think that every single child should be encouraged to aspire to be the best they can. I don't accept that tradespeople are less innately intelligent than some of the people running our country, but some of the have never been encouraged to go for it.

I get a bit cross with people who claim that the Labour Party doesn't represent ordinary people. With the notable exception of Angela Rayner (whom people love to mock), most Labour MPs have certainly come through the university route, but why don't the moaners take them on and go down that route themselves?

One thing the UK is excellent at producing are creatives whether actors, artists or musicians.

And look at how funding for the arts is being cut.

The message I would give is, if you A Level results are marginal
Cs or lower think hard before you commit to 3 or 4 yrs and a student loan of £30k+.

Yes, you will find a University to take you, but technical training for your career may well be a better choice.

Nobody has mentioned the student suicides. From a report from "Top Universities" in April 2021 during the previous 10 years 1330 students at university committed suicide. 66% of those were male. That is 1330 too many.

Nor the attempted sucicides.

Katie59

The message I would give is, if you A Level results are marginal
Cs or lower think hard before you commit to 3 or 4 yrs and a student loan of £30k+.

Yes, you will find a University to take you, but technical training for your career may well be a better choice.

I agree with you to an extent. However, it depends on the subject. 18 year olds should certainly look to the future and ask themselves whether there are alternative routes to where they want to be in (say) five or ten years. The problem is that many 18 year olds don't have a clue what they want to do with their lives and they are often heavily influenced by their parents.

My advice to teenagers would be to keep as many doors as possible open and, furthermore, make sure they have the keys (ie good grades) to the doors, should they ever want to open them in the future.

When my DD was in the Civil Service she recruited people from this modern apprenticeship scheme into her teams.
www.civil-service-careers.gov.uk/apprenticeships/
Do enough people know that these schemes exist?
It is all an interesting comparison with what we have here in France. You chose your métier and you train for as much as five years to be a plumber, waiter, hairdresser etc. People have pride in their métier and regard it as a job for life. It does mean that the job market can be quite inflexible. I have a friend in the UK who left teaching and qualified as a plumber. My French friends found this astonishing.