Downs Syndrome and Abortion.

Kandinsky

Isn’t it obvious that’s what happens?

No not to me I’m afraid.

I simply can’t imagine killing a potentially viable foetus knowingly.

It is something I find the stuff of nightmares.

Whitewavemark2

But saying that the only apparent proviso was that the foetus was suffering from Down’s syndrome and most are born perfectly viable.

I agree, wwm2. Few people knew that abortion up to term has always been legal in certain cases, so this young woman’s campaign will hopefully raise awareness, and maybe put resources into place to support women who have to make the decision and also to support people with Down’s to live a full and independent life.

I simply can’t imagine killing a potentially viable foetus knowingly

Don’t do it then, your choice. But don’t take that choice away from other women.

Kandinsky

*I simply can’t imagine killing a potentially viable foetus knowingly*

Don’t do it then, your choice. But don’t take that choice away from other women.

Well, I’m having real angst over this.

Choice to parent a severely disabled child is very different to deciding to take away the life of a potential viable human.

Witzend

Surely an abortion anywhere near full term must be extremely rare. I do know of someone who had one - or rather perhaps an induced labour - at 7 months, but that was because it was found out quite late that the baby had some condition that meant it would live only for a few hours, if that. It was utterly heartbreaking for the parents, who however did get to hold him for a very short while before he died.

Thats the sort of scenario I'd assumed.

Problem with headlines like this is that Downs syndrome has hugely varying outcomes so its easy to jump on the "Shock horror bandwagon."

Not life at any cost at all, but I cant be happy with terminating that late a life that could be well lived.

But not a life spent for example 4/5 years on life support unable to see or hear or breathe independently sometimes on pain for "life's sake".

To be fair to the judge he said that it was not for the Courts or himself to amend the law but to uphold it and he is quite right.

He said it was a matter for Parliament to change laws.

This was the wrong place for their challenge but I guess they did it for the publicity. As it will be if they take it to the Supreme Court.

The judges there can’t change the law either.

On the other hand some children are born so very severely disabled that the quality of their life is dreadful.

Oh dear - I think what I’m having real difficulty with is the killing of foetus.

I think this is beyond me - I’m dropping out here

A drug is usually administered to stop the foetus’s heart prior to the termination procedure. Late TOP’s are a very rare event, 0.1% of all abortions. More data here. www.gov.uk/government/statistics/abortion-statistics-for-england-and-wales-2020/abortion-statistics-england-and-wales-2020

I feel very sorry for anyone having to make such a decision, I doubt anyone does it on a whim.

I couldn't do it but I wont stand in judgement of some poor woman and her partner who feel they have no choice,My mother bled so heavily during a labour her life was at risk.Her priest told the Doctor the baby must be saved,my father disagreed ,the priest insisted he had the right to make the choice.
My fathers decision was accepted by the doctor and they never went back to church again.Their baby ,my sister was born alive and lived 9 hours.My mother never recovered from that loss ,she was guilt ridden for the rest of her life.
Sometimes we have to make judgement calls that no one can understand and never will .Just be grateful it wasn't you who had to do it .

The law has been the same for a very long time. Medical science has improved, though, so I could argue that the law is outdated, given advances in prenatal diagnosis and care. My daughter's friends kept their baby - after much indecision and discussion on how they'd cope, how it would impact on his brother - and whether it was cruel to bring him into this 'uncaring society' as a disabled child.

Another thing that's changed dramatically (over the last few decades) is life expectancy for a Downs Syndrome child. Now, there's often the additional nightmare of realising that they'll probably outlive parents, siblings and wider family - so will be in care for their later years (care they won't be able to provide).

He's such a beautiful, happy boy. His mother gave up work, they moved to a smaller house, he had several heart operations as a baby and his development was very delayed. They all worry (a lot) about him, especially his brother, they're devoted, positive and so aware of his 'rights' as a disabled person, often, they say, as a 'second class citizen, needing care - bordering subhuman' in our (so called 'caring') society.

I too have worked with handicapped children, they were in a care home, one, a thalidomide baby had no limbs, was blind and deaf, being kept alive. It made me really think about options.

Daddima

Whitewavemark2

But saying that the only apparent proviso was that the foetus was suffering from Down’s syndrome and most are born perfectly viable.

I agree, wwm2. Few people knew that abortion up to term has always been legal in certain cases, so this young woman’s campaign will hopefully raise awareness, and maybe put resources into place to support women who have to make the decision and also to support people with Down’s to live a full and independent life.

The trouble is, Daddima, is that although some people with Down’s are very high functioning, many are not, and will never be independent - they will need looking after to a great or lesser extent for their whole lives. I know of one such, and it’s a great worry to the parents to think who’s going to fill the gap after they’re gone.

I think it unlikely that any of us will be aborting or killing a viable foetus, but if I found out I was carrying a Downs baby I absolutely would not have it. I would terminate the pregnancy. I would sincerely hope that I found out long before 39 weeks though. Goodness, I’ve never carried a baby to 39 weeks. Two were born at 38 weeks and one at 34 weeks.

OK, my last pregnancy I was told my baby was highly likely to have Downs Syndrome due to my age and DH’s, tests confirmed this.

This was two days before Christmas which we were celebrating with friends and family at Centre Parcs.

I knew I couldn’t terminate, friends formed a cocoon of love and support round me until delivery, baby was delivered without Downs.

Tests are not 100% accurate.

Oh gg13 what a joyful outcome. I think though that tests now can show very accurately whether DS was present and you would have been saved such fear and heartache,

I had my children at 37 and 42, so I was at high risk of having Downs Syndrome babies. I had an amniocentesis test @ 18 weeks with both babies and had to wait a couple of weeks for the results. We had already decided that we would terminate, but fortunately both tests were negative, so we never had to make the decision.

An amnio is 100% accurate, but there's a chance of damage to the foetus, so it was all very nerve-wracking.

Was that an amniocentesis test, GrannyGravy?

SueDonim

Was that an amniocentesis test, GrannyGravy?

No, I declined an amniocentesis.

Once I felt movement that was it, fortunately DH supported my decision.

To put it into context of numbers, only 0.1% of abortions last year took place after 24 weeks. 87% were before 10 weeks. Women are not aborting fully formed, healthy babies.

I think the wording of the law confuses this issue a lot. No one is aborting a baby at 39 weeks. Legally, there is a right to allow a woman to should she find out that the baby would be seriously handicapped. But what happens is that women go for a scan between 20-22 weeks pregnant, they get bad news about the babies health and are then referred onto consultants for further tests to find out the viability and potential health complications. That can take another week or 2. Then there’s the time for the woman to make the decision and to terminate the pregnancy. So in some cases the termination (which is for medical reasons) can occur at over 24 weeks. But only because the baby would be seriously handicapped.

The law is there to protect and enable women to make an informed decision, with enough time. Most of these late abortions occur in women ages over 35 as well, so usually due to complications more likely to occur due to the mothers age and more often than not are much wanted babies. It must be a heartbreaking decision to make, but the alternative? Force women to carry a baby to term that will never have a good quality of life, or a baby that may die hours after birth? I would rather have the chance to end the pregnancy earlier than have to carry on knowing my child will suffer anyway.

Thank you Newmon. I completely agree with you.

As do I.

these matters are not just about the parents (although of course they have to actually make the decisions).

Its resources too - unless the parents are very well off, the prospect of a lovely and caring care home provided by the state are far from realistic.

I have a very disabled DGD, who fortunately, tho nearly blind, learning disabled and with Cerebral palsy and epilepsy, has a good quality of life because her parent put enormous amounts of effort in, and can afford some private care at the moment as its all part time: but when she finishes school, we all know very well in the family that she will never live independently, she will need 24/7 care.

My DiL and DS never had the choice as she was oxygen deprived at birth and was doing OK until during Covid at age 6 she had major fits which then took away her sight. It has caused some issues for DGD's eldest brother because so much attention was needed by DGD.

I would never dream of asking DS and DiL "had you had the choice".

But here is the crux of the matter: were we a society that had adequate care home provision for those needing 24/7 lifelong care then their choices and their feelings might have varied a great deal. But we are not.

The options are really limited at the end of schooling years for daycare. However loving DS and DiL are, they will get old themselves.

We all live in the present, but I think my families experiences have made me feel that it needs to be an option for parents to weigh up what kind of life a child of theirs might have and what their limitations, emotionally, or financially, might be.

What a wonderful outcome GrannyGravy and you clearly would have welcomed and loved your child whatever.
For myself, I decided before I became pregnant with my first child that I would not carry a baby to term if I knew it was seriously disabled. I knew I would be unable to care for and bring up such a child, but that I couldn’t abandon it either, and therefore for me, the best solution would have been termination. It didn’t happen anyway, but two of my babies were born with serious medical issues and required treatment and a stay in NICU. They both made complete recoveries and have grown into wonderful people, in my extremely biased opinion.

As I understand it, only an amniocentesis or CVS can test for Down’s (and other) syndromes with certainty. The other tests are screening ones such as NIPT and they can only tell you the probability of a baby being affected. To know for sure, amnio or CVS would also have to be carried out.

I am happy there is choice for these cases - as a parent, you want the best for your child and depending on the severity, this could be it

It seems heartless, but I think it is worse compulsory condemning the child and family to a very difficult life, with no end in sigh for the suffering

My thoughts are with the parents who have to take this extremely difficult decision

I had amniocentesis with all three of my pregnancies because there were medical issues that made it necessary.
However I think the screening which is now carried out routinely will lead to an amniocentesis if results show a possible disability. And of course scans diagnose some problems, my sister in law’s baby was diagnosed with severe abnormalities incompatible with life when she 26 weeks pregnant and she went ahead with a termination, which of course was an induced birth at that stage.