Downs Syndrome and Abortion.

I agree Farzanah. No one does this for kicks.

I agree with you Lathyrus

If I had found I was having a Down’s baby I would have aborted. I do understand there are degrees of Downs and can understand why that young lady went to court.

Some years back we were in a pub when a family came in with a severely handicapped child (could have been a teenager) . Clearly they were a rich family as they had a carer to help them. The poor child cried, screamed and moaned throughout the whole meal. Many people moved from that part of the pub. I can understand why but we stayed the course. I thought how that family has this 24 hours a day. It was unbearable. It is seared into my memory.

There but for the grace of God…
What an awful decision to have to make - no way done lightly.

fighting against authorities is harder than coping with the disability - how very true this is and what a sorry indictment on our society.

I know this to be true as I was in SW with adults with disabilities (mostly due to head injury) - I fought tooth and nail to get the help and care they needed and it was a massive battle - reams of forms, meetings, panels, being fobbed off, buck passing, delays, inadequate funding .... I could go on. And this was with every single client - it wore me out and was soul-destroying for them.

I went though similar battles on behalf of my seriously ill OH; as did my sister on behalf of her brain-damaged son.

No-one in government cares one jot. It just goes on and on.

To think that some babies might be aborted because the parents know the proper help and support will not be there is frankly appalling.

I was offered an amniocentesis with one of my pregnancies - we did not take this up as we had decided we would not abort anyway so there was little point.

In 1992 aged 37 we finally found out we were expecting a baby after a year of trying (after an 18 year gap, 2nd marriage). At 8 weeks I had heavy bleeding which stopped and a scan showed things seemed ok. However, from that point on I felt like I had flu every day for the next 8 weeks I felt so ill. I went to my elderly gp and said I knew there was something very wrong and he said “my dear, I think you’ve been reading too many women’s magazines”. The next week I saw another much younger male gp who did listen and sent me for a non-procedural scan which showed the baby had an as yet, unidentified severe chromosomal abnormality and the baby was non viable with many extreme problems. I had amniocentesis to establish the abnormality and had a termination the same day. The male foetus had Down’s syndrome at the most severe end of the spectrum and they were amazed I hadn’t miscarried already.

14 months later I gave birth to my second daughter. Life is unimaginable without her and my beautiful grandchildren. I have never regretted my decision but it was heartbreaking at the time. I think the cutoff point for termination should be no more than about 13-15 weeks for normal pregnancies though.

If the child is not viable then it will die anyway and that is more of a mercy killing. It is a whole different issue from killing a perfectly normal foetus in a late term pregnancy after 20 weeks. That is murder. I personally would never,ever have had an abortion and I think it is wrong but it is not for me to say whether others decide to early in a pregnancy before there is any chance of survival.

Medical abortions done in hospital are never classed as murder

nanna8
This thread isn’t about late term abortion of a perfectly normal foetus though is it? This thread is about the posssible late term abortion of a Down Syndrome baby, or a late term abortion of a foetus with other abnormalities. Mainly it’s about Down Syndrome babies. I would do it, others have said they would, and some have said they wouldn’t. But no one has said they would have a late term abortion of a perfectly normal foetus. Absolutely no one.

People with Down syndrome generally have better representation and support compared to other groups of people who have moderate to severe learning disabilities, most of which cannot be diagnosed before birth and ongoing development.

Luckygirl, I appreciate your acknowledgement of my post. I think it is very difficult for other people to understand how stressful and draining it is advocating for your child/adult child with a disability. I worry for people who cannot advocate for their children and I imagine as social worker, it was often soul destroying for you too.

I am concerned that what we once regarded as desirable, that the law would be changed to fit in with the reality of women's lives, is still being challenged in court, and that access to abortion is still not the same for women in all parts of the UK. The Women's Equality Party is campaigning for equal access, the decriminalisation of abortion and its movement from a legal matter to a healthcare matter. It really is time this happened www.womensequality.org.uk/prochoice

nanna8

If the child is not viable then it will die anyway and that is more of a mercy killing. It is a whole different issue from killing a perfectly normal foetus in a late term pregnancy after 20 weeks. That is murder. I personally would never,ever have had an abortion and I think it is wrong but it is not for me to say whether others decide to early in a pregnancy before there is any chance of survival.

Sometimes I feel like I’m waging a campaign against inaccuracy and sensationalist reporting.

nanna8, I really do want you to understand what the law in Britain is.

Up to 24 weeks (which is when a foetus is medically judged to be capable of independent life) termination can be carried out on a number of specified grounds and with the approval of two doctors.

After 24 weeks termination can only be carried out if there is evidence if severe abnormalities or danger to the mothers life.
It is true that there is no upper limit set which has enabled those opposed to abortion to claim a baby can be aborted at term.

But this is a piece of sensationalism designed to horrify people and bears no relation to the reality that as the foetus develops serious abnormalities become apparent that could not have been discovered before 24 weeks.

As I said earlier, in countries where later termination is banned mothers have died because their abnormal pregnancy could not be ended before the foetus created sepsis in the mother.

That too could be regarded as murder, couldn’t it?

It’s hard to shake firmly fixed ideas I’m afraid Lathyrus despite evidence to contrary. 🙁

I completely endorse Luckygirl and JaneJudge’s posts. I worked as a HV and know first hand how exhausting for parents with a child with disabilities to get basic support for their child, let alone the type of support enabling them to live their best life. This should be a right of every child, and not dependent on voluntary organisations and charities.

Sadly many families split under the extreme pressure, so unless you have walked a mile in another’s shoes……..

At 39 weeks that isn’t abortion it’s murder, that can’t have been suggested, a baby born at born at over 32 weeks has a good chance of survival. I can’t see any nurse or doctor doing that, it’s appalling.

Allsorts

At 39 weeks that isn’t abortion it’s murder, that can’t have been suggested, a baby born at born at over 32 weeks has a good chance of survival. I can’t see any nurse or doctor doing that, it’s appalling.

I'd like to know how many foetuses are aborted after 32 weeks, My guess is that it's in the single figures. There are certainly very few aborted after 24 weeks.

The only cases of late abortion I've known are where the baby has already died in the womb or scans have shown that a baby would not live after being delivered. They've been absolutely heartbreaking.

I haven't read the judgment, but my guess is that the 39 week cut off allows for cases where the baby has died or would not live. Early delivery (ie abortion) means that the mother doesn't have to go through the trauma of knowing she's carrying a dead baby.

In theory, it would be possible to abort a Downs baby at a late stage, but I would hope that early scans would mean that an earlier abortion would be possible. (And, yes, I know there are some people who wouldn't abort anyway, but I do think that must be their choice.) Issues are likely to arise where a woman doesn't have access to good ante-natal care for whatever reason.

Allsorts

At 39 weeks that isn’t abortion it’s murder, that can’t have been suggested, a baby born at born at over 32 weeks has a good chance of survival. I can’t see any nurse or doctor doing that, it’s appalling.

It hasn’t been suggested that Downs babies could be aborted at 39 weeks. Not at all. It’s a twisting of what the law says by those who are opposed to any abortion in order to create exactly those feelings of horror.

Up to 24 weeks there are several grounds for termination.
After 24 weeks severe disabilities or potential death are legal grounds because some do not become apparent by 24 weeks.

There is no upper limit because, sadly, mothers lives can be in danger right up to birth. Induction is necessary. If there was a limit of 32 weeks (or whatever) doctors could be prosecuted for carrying out induction after that date, knowing the foetus would not survive.

This is a cruel and wrong presentation of how termination actually takes place.

I’ll say again. In countries where late termination is not allowed women die.

Allsorts, the law isn’t condoning murder. Read the facts.