Bullying, harassment, London Fire Brigade

The fears you'll be isolated - won't be believed - so powerful, you can end up thinking "its my fault for not coping". thats why the black guy in that Fire Service took his own life rather than complain..

lovebeigecardigans1955 -yes, and it does take a lot of inner strength to call out your "own" group behaving badly.

As has been pointed out, it's often when large groups of men get together some of them behave very badly and as no-one wants to be the one to speak up, it's easier to join in (or remain quiet) than to call it out.

Possibly she did, but couldn't sack them either?

Without people speaking out against them formally and complaining in a way that allows the procedures to end in sacking, it's impossible to get rid of people. Sometimes it can be done with some sort of "golden goodbye" but probably the police can't just pay people off... and really they shouldn't have to.

I have seen this happen in Universities and the staff just go elsewhere.

Good question.
and I dont have an answer, for she must have seen it at work.
There will always be a small number of women who have been tough enough to "make it to the top" but don't as it were take on board the concerns of other women once they've got there. Feel they have to be one of the boys? Beyond that I'm guessing.

The new met commissioner is quoted as saying there are many misogynist, racist, criminal officers he wants to, but can’t sack. Let’s hope he tackles that. How come Cressida Dick didn’t seem to notice

LFB now in “an enhanced level of monitoring “

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-63969181

NotSpaghetti

Can I just give a shoot-out to those truly excellent officers who did outstanding work supporting the victims/survivors of abuse.
Let's not tar everyone.

Of course - I've been getting out of an abusive relationship this year and had to call the police round twice. Both times were lovely young men, and "aware", clearly had good training and they mentioned our force as being very ++ in this field. they weren't good enough to really take it through, but caring listeners.

It makes me aware things can change: but all the more aware of how misuse of the power they have can be very, very dangerous.

I worked closely with police from 1981- 2011, joint training, joint investigations. Ok some of the work involved specialist police teams but my wider ecperience was largely positive. Just as it was with other agencies, largely excellent dedicated staff, the occasional individual who would have been better on a window cleaning round (no disrespect window cleaners)

Shoot-out... No. *shout-out!

Can I just give a shoot-out to those truly excellent officers who did outstanding work supporting the victims/survivors of abuse.
Let's not tar everyone.

Iam the police were also disproportionately represented as you say.
But this was the 1990s/2000s, not the 1970s. In one case it was clear a serving officer had been "tipped off" about his (also serving) wife by a serving (and senior) colleague who she has gone to for assistance. They were definitely unhappy about arresting/charging the perpetrators.
Services looked after their own - unless they were escaping abuse it seemed to me.

All this said, I have wonderd if firemen (and other servicemen) are considered to be "rescuers" and possibly attract more women who are vulnerable or suffer from low self worth. I've no accademic evidence for this. I've had a quick look on Google Scholar just now. There is nothing obvious there and am conscious that I don't want to stray into victim-blaming because what better way to lower your self worth than being told you are worthless.

Correcting first sentence, "A real hero doesn't have to put women and minorities down to be confident as a white male!

There are different ways of being a hero. A real hero doesn't have to put there down to be confident as a white male!

We have to bring our boys differently. And create a political culture where it is expected that we "call out" abuse - not dismiss with "wokeism"

What happened in the report IS going on in pockets all over the country. time to call a halt. I am heartened by the fact the now government ministers are being "called out" for bullying too. (and I include women bullies, btw, its just that in our society it is currently male on female and PoC.)

All cultures partly at least depend on the behaviour of those on the top layers..

Most people have feet of clay.
Fireman are everyday heroes, just think of what they do and what they have to see.

I felt really sad about the whole story. Firemen to me were ‘hero types’.
Seems they have feet of clay.

Nanatoone, I wonder if it’s worse than our experience? My father was a Royal Marine, joined the police, had a very successful career. He discouraged 17 year old me from applying but told me 10 years later he’d been wrong, the best sergeant he’d ever had was a women. They’d positively changed the force ( were talking late 70’s)
I don’t like celeb culture - are women being put down in more unpleasant wsys

If reporting and getting a complaint dealt with happens when you are still working in that `team` how does that work. I wouldn`t be surprised if a lot more goes on that is not reported.
I think men feel its just a laugh and they are `entitled` to behave in such a horrible way.

Having served in the RAF in the seventies I did not see much of this kind of behaviour. It’s a shock to me that people like this still exist. I do think uniformed services do attract a macho mentality, even amongst women. We seventies women were more than capable of batting back the odd stupid comment from the men. I did know one man who was promoted through the officer ranks despite being known to be an abuser though. Just one known to me though. On the whole I’d like to think we’d have moved on as a society, but this report is damming.

Not Spaghetti, scarily, the number of women reporting DA from partners who are serving police officers is disproportionally high. Many of the women reporting are serving police officers.
I believe it’s cultural and needs outside involvement. The Navy officer on radio r insisted it needed internal investigators who understand the navy. We rest our case

When I worked with women fleeing domestic abuse the proportion of women escaping firemen was totally out of proportion to the number of firemen in the country.
All the uniformed services were disproportionately represented.
Either they tended to attract more of a particular sort of man or the culture was deeply damaging.

I am not saying that there are no truly great, kind and honourable men in uniforms of one sort or another - but it was sufficiently noticeable to me that it was something I discussed with workers in other geographical locations to see if my area was an aberration!

Splendid post, Dickens.

"Sadly, often when this kind of issue is raised, there are accusations of being 'woke' or that old favourite 'political correctness gone mad'

yup, been there, had it, fed up with it. We're just asking human beings to be respectful and decent to each other

Of course, you pick your moments - and its usually better approaching individuals than in a group or meeting. Unless it's the topic of the meeting.

I was in a Zoom discussing leading support groups in a particular vulnerable group, and one man pontificated, "well, the "man in the street" such and such. I reacted without thinking about "best approach" and just said quietly, "man or woman" and he threw back, "oh not all the WOKE stuff". I didn't react, not appropriate, but talked afterwards to the facilitator asking her was he really suitable yet to lead or facilitate groups with vulnerable women and PoC in them.

But it would have been better to talk to him quietly when I met him in person.

I think some apparently "Strong" men are actually afraid of women. Still want us to be "lesser" or "smaller" somehow.

Still, it's shocking to me - the sheer level of institutionalised racism and sexism in the Fire Service emerging in the report. In the 1970's when I was involved in the Womens Movement (well, the second one, as they list was the (Emancipation Movement) we wanted to bring men with us not set up in opposition in some way.

The Army are refusing an independent investigation, they want their own people, the military, doing it, turkeys voting for Christmas springs to mind.

Thanks for the update on comments below the article in Microsoft news, Dickens.
I acknowledge the pressure on senior fire service managers interviewed this morning but I felt some despair that not one admitted having heard or seen this kind of disgusting behaviour in the service. It’s cultural or wouldn’t have been so frequently experienced by its victims
Yes, the fire, police and military services need staff brave enough to run into, not away from trouble. That doesn’t mean mindless, macho thuggery - quite the opposite

You have just written what I was about to Dickens. Sadly, often when this kind of issue is raised, there are accusations of being 'woke' or that old favourite 'political correctness gone mad'. As for men patronising women, do we remember Cameron and his 'Calm down dear' comment to a fellow, female MP? I wonder if his wife criticised him for that?